Committee Transcripts: Standing Committee on Government Agencies - February 09, 2009 - Agency review: Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario. This is amazing. One for the history books, I tell ya.
The Chair (Mrs. Julia Munro):
I'd first like to ask Mr. Mark Steyn to come forward and join us. Please sit
down and make yourself comfortable. Good afternoon, Mr. Steyn. I would just
explain to you that we have 30 minutes set aside that you may use as you wish in
making comments. Time that is left over then will be divided amongst the
caucuses. So please begin if you're ready.
Mr. Mark Steyn: I'd just like
to make a brief statement, and then I'm happy to answer any questions.
The present Ontario human rights regime is
incompatible with a free society. It is useless on real human rights issues that
we face today, and in the course of such pseudo human rights as the human right
to smoke marijuana on someone else's property or the human right to a
transsexual labioplasty, it tramples on real human rights, including property
rights, free speech, the right to due process and the presumption of
innocence.
Far from reducing racism or sexism, the
Ontario human rights regime explicitly institutionalizes racism and sexism
through its inability to view any dispute except through the narrow prism of
identity politics. It's at odds not just with eight centuries of this province's
legal inheritance, but with the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human
Rights. Canada likes that one so much, it sticks it on the back of the $50 bill,
even though Ontario's human rights regime is in sustained systemic breach of
article 6, article 7, articles 8 to 10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 21 and 27 of the UN
declaration. The good news is that Ontario is not in violation of as many
articles as Sudan or North Korea.
All are equal before the law and are entitled,
without any discrimination, to equal protection of the law. That's article 7.
It's not true in Ontario. Last year, the Ontario Human Rights Commission
effectively gave Maclean's and myself a drive-by verdict. They couldn't be
bothered taking us to trial, but they decided to pronounce us guilty anyway.
That neglects the most basic principle of justice: Audi alteram partem; hear the
other side. Chief commissar Barbara Hall didn't bother hearing the other side;
she simply declared us guilty. That is the very defining act of a police state:
an apparatchik announcing that a citizen is guilty of dissent from state
orthodoxy.
But here's the point: Maclean's and I have no
fear of Barbara Hall, the commission or the tribunal. You're welcome to try and
do your worst to us. We have deep pockets. We pushed back and we filled the
newspapers with stories about all these wacky cases that Barbara Hall and others
are so obsessed about. Like all tinpot bullies, the commission couldn't take the
heat and backed down. But if you're just a fellow who happens to own a
restaurant in Burlington, the Ontario human rights regime will destroy your
savings, your business and your life for no good reason. The verdict is
irrelevant; the process is the punishment.
I would like to say one further thing: When
Mohamed Elmasry announced his suits against Maclean's, he was supported by Terry
Downey of the Ontario Federation of Labour, and Ms. Downey, explaining her
support for Dr. Elmasry, said, "There is proper conduct that everyone has to
follow." Sorry; I pass on that one. For one thing, there is no "proper conduct"
in the wacky world of pseudo human rights in this province. The rules are made
up as they go along, so even if you wanted to follow them, you can't. In John
Locke's words, they "dispose of the Estates of the Subject arbitrarily."
Secondly, it's all too easy to imagine the
Terry Downeys of the day primly telling a homosexual 50 years ago that there's
proper conduct that everyone has to follow, or a Jew 70 years ago that there's
proper conduct that everyone has to follow. That's why free societies do not
license ideologues to regulate proper conduct. When you subordinate legal
principles to ideological fashion, you place genuine liberties in peril, and
that' s the state in Ontario today.
Thank you.
The Chair (Mrs. Julia Munro):
Thank you very much. We will begin with the official opposition, Ms.
MacLeod.
Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Welcome to
our committee, Mr. Steyn. During the summer, this committee convened to
interview and review the 22 vice-chairs and the 22 members of the Ontario Human
Rights Tribunal. Throughout that process, your case, Maclean's versus the
Ontario Human Rights Commission, as well as what happened in British Columbia to
you as well as what happened federally to you, was front and centre on our
minds. Consistently throughout that process I asked questions of the deputants,
those seeking to be appointed to the Ontario Human Rights Tribunal, if they
believed the free press trumped discrimination or vice versa. One of the
deputants actually responded. Today, earlier, I asked the same question to the
chair of the Ontario Human Rights Tribunal. He responded and said that neither
trumps either. I would like your view on that, because it follows a logical set
of questions that I have which are next with respect to freedom of expression
and freedom of speech.
Mr. Mark Steyn: With respect
to the witness this morning, that has become a standard equivocation at the
Ontario Human Rights Tribunal. Whenever tribunal judges take away individual
human rights, they do so under the guise of what they call balancing competing
rights. So for example, going back to the Scott Brockie case, they claim to be
balancing his right to freedom of religion with the right of the gay people
seeking printed materials to be free from discrimination. In practice they
almost never balance those rights. They always defer to collective rights, group
rights, in favour of individual rights. I'm an absolutist on this. I agree with
the view that the ultimate minority is the individual and classically,
historically, common law has been entirely antipathetic to group rights, because
who can speak for a group? The notion of group rights should be an abomination
to a settled democracy as old as this province.
Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Has the
experience that you and Maclean's faced, do you believe-in your opinion, has
that chilled coverage of other controversial events in this province?
Mr. Mark Steyn: Yes, I would
say that's undoubtedly the case. Essentially, Maclean's and I-Maclean's in the
corporate sense decided the amount of money it was willing to spend to see off
these assaults on freedom, and I made a personal calculation of the amount of
money that I was willing to spend on that. I'm fortunate, unlike most people
caught in the human rights trap, to have that amount of money that I can
spend.
But the reality is that most editors and most
publishers don't want to get caught in this business. What you see progressively
is the shrivelling of the bounds of public discourse. People say to me, "Don't
worry; you'll be acquitted eventually." That happened to that guy in
Saskatchewan, in the Saskatoon StarPhoenix, the fellow who took out the ad, not
even quoting the Biblical passages but just citing the chapter and verse. It
appeared as an ad in the Saskatoon StarPhoenix. Four years later, that was
overturned at the Saskatchewan Court of Appeal. But in reality, nobody can place
that ad today. You couldn't take that ad to the Saskatoon StarPhoenix and expect
them to run it. So, in that sense, the public space, the space for public
discourse, shrivels remorselessly under this regime.
Ms. Lisa MacLeod: You spoke
earlier about the drive-by verdict of the Ontario Human Rights Commission. Could
you inform us of other aspects of natural justice that were lacking in your
experience before the Ontario Human Rights Commission?
Mr. Mark Steyn: Yes. There's
a reason why-but let's start with the basic thing. For example, truth is no
defence. No one was disputing the truth of what I wrote, nobody was arguing that
it was libellous or seditious or false, for all of which there would be
appropriate legal remedy. In essence, the plaintiffs were arguing that they'd
been offended. Well, offensiveness is in the eye of the offended. I have no way
of commenting on that one way or another. It's not possible in a legal sense to
mount a defence to the accusation that you've offended somebody, which is why
the human right not to be offended should not exist in free societies. That's
the first and most basic thing that this system fails in.
1340
Ms. Lisa MacLeod: It's
interesting that you bring that up. Murray Campbell, who's one of your
colleagues here at Queen's Park-he works for the Globe and Mail-wrote a column
on August 28 about this committee and the probe that we put forward with the
appointees. He writes that: "Ms. MacLeod is right to explore the grey area
between free speech and responsibility and to wonder how the tribunal will
operate when it is handed allegations of discrimination from people who don't
believe press councils or hate laws protect them." He specifically cites you. He
says that it' s time "for Attorney General Chris Bentley to get it going"-and
that's more public debate-"before Mr. Steyn writes another book."< /p>
I say this because the defence of you and your
freedom to express yourself and the freedom of your opinions-the support ranged
from many different groups across Canada, from Egale to PEN to the Canadian
Association of Journalists, as well as other journalists that work in the field,
in addition to media ranging from the Toronto Star to Eye Weekly to, now, the
Globe and Mail. Have you called for the censorship provisions of the Human
Rights Commission to be appealed, and did it surprise you that you had so much
support?
Mr. Mark Steyn: No, because I
think it should be obvious. If anything, I was rather alarmed by the number of
Canadian journalists who are quite happy to serve, in effect, as eunuchs of the
politically correct state. I can't understand why anybody would want to do
that.
It took a while. The organizations you
mentioned were late getting on the bandwagon. In a sense, if you want to make
this a right-wing, left-wing thing, the international left in the United States,
the United Kingdom, Australia-people who loathe me personally-got the essence of
this far quicker than the Canadian left did: that if you don't believe in free
speech for people you loathe, you don't believe in free speech at all.
Every time you have someone like Haroon
Siddiqui at the Toronto Star saying, "Oh, it's all about striking a balance,"
and all the rest of it-every time someone tiptoes down that primrose path, it
leads only to tyranny. If you don't believe in free speech for people you
loathe, you hate, you revile, you don't believe in free speech at all.
Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Thank you
very much. I know my colleague Christine Elliott has a few questions for you-or
my colleague Randy Hillier has a few questions for you.
The Chair (Mrs. Julia Munro):
Okay. I just will warn you that we have about two minutes left for your
caucus.
Mr. Randy Hillier: Thank you
very much for being here. It is an absolute pleasure to hear people speaking
forthrightly, such as yourself today.
The process, you've talked about. The process
is the trap. The objective is not important in this whole process. Do you have
any comments on if this human rights tribunal ought to be here at all, or how
you might offer suggestions or recommendations to improve it?
Mr. Mark Steyn: I believe in
the abolition of the commission, because I believe the commission is nothing but
ideological activists. I have no objection to that; I've been accused of that
myself, but I do it on my own dime and I don't see why commissar Hall and her
colleagues shouldn't also do it on their own dime.
The tribunal, I think, needs to be brought
within the codes and conventions of this country's legal system. At the moment,
it upends them. The burden of proof ought to be on the accuser. The accuser
should not be allowed unlimited funds to frivolously torment people for no
reason, beggaring them for something that serves no public purpose.
Whatever you think of the marijuana thing, it
seems initially to arise from a defectively written law. But that great issue,
the issue of where you can smoke medicinal marijuana-the burden of that should
not be on Gator Ted. The transsexual labioplasty is perfect nonsense. Any sane
person understands exactly what was going on when that doctor said that he was
not willing to operate on these two transsexual women.
The idea that people should be essentially
punished by a system that does not allow them equality with their accuser is a
mark of great shame to this province. If there has to be a tribunal, it should
be brought within the bounds of normal legal practice and this province's
800-year legal tradition.
The Chair (Mrs. Julia Munro):
Thank you very much. I'll move on to Ms. DiNovo.
Ms. Cheri DiNovo: Mr. Steyn,
if somebody puts a sign up in their store that says, "No Jews Need Apply," would
that be considered okay in your-
Mr. Mark Steyn: We're not
talking about "No Jews Need Apply." It's very interesting to me. Even at the
time, for example, the famous No Irish Need Apply song, which became a famous
hit song in the 19th century that Irish-Americans took up enthusiastically and
made one of the biggest hit songs of the mid-19th century-when they actually
went looking for "No Irish Need Apply" ads, in the whole of the United States,
they found exactly two. It's easy to do. You can go now and search the entire
archives of the New York Times, the Boston Globe, all the rest of it: There were
only two. So even in its day, the "No Irish Need Apply," "No Jews Need Apply,"
"No Muslims Need Apply" was a very rare activity. Today, it's almost entirely
vanished. That's not what we're talking about. If you look at the tribunal-
Ms. Cheri DiNovo: But why
not, if I might interrupt? If freedom of speech is absolute, your freedom of
speech to put in your store window "No Jews Need Apply" or "No Muslims Will Be
Served" or "Coloureds Sit at the End of the Counter" is surely covered by
freedom of speech.
Mr. Mark Steyn: I think
that's to do with basic equality before the law. I recognize laws of public
accommodation. I recognize, for example, that if you have a restaurant, you
can't say that the Jews sit at this table and the Muslims sit at that table.
Ms. Cheri DiNovo: Why not?
It's your freedom, as an individual freedom of speech, to be able to do so.
Mr. Mark Steyn: No, because I
think that once you get into the business, as I said, of public accommodation,
where you're offering a service to the public-and again, I think there are
exceptions to this. There's the famous case in Mississauga, the latest to make
this system a laughingstock, about the woman who claims she was dismissed as a
stripper on age grounds. I've never been to this strip club in Mississauga, but
it sounds like the top-of-the-line strip joint in town, and obviously they pay
better than other strip clubs in that area. Why shouldn't I go along and say,
"Hey, you know something? I'd like to work as a stripper here and you're
discriminating against me on grounds of"-
Ms. Cheri DiNovo: To bring
you back to point, though, the point of the Ontario Human Rights Code and of
human rights codes generally is to prevent the "No Jews Need Apply" action.
Without the Ontario Human Rights Code, without the Charter of Rights and
Freedoms, freedom of speech, in its absolute and ultimate form, would rule the
day. Clearly, hateful words lead to hateful actions.
Mr. Mark Steyn: No. I would
say-this is the classic human rights dodge, by the way, to identify a
non-problem that you claim to be solving. Nobody is putting up "No Jews Need
Apply" signs. As I said, historically-
Ms. Cheri DiNovo: They are
paying women 71 cents for every dollar that men earn, however.
Mr. Mark Steyn: Yes.
Ms. Cheri DiNovo: That is
going on. And in fact, they are still spreading a great many hateful words on
the Internet-
Mr. Mark Steyn: Yes,
exactly.
Ms. Cheri DiNovo: -and they
are still denying transsexuals and transgendered folk employment or housing,
quite legally.
Mr. Mark Steyn: Yes. Let me
just talk about this " hateful words" business. This is again the sham of this
Human Rights Tribunal, in that it does not treat all hate equally.
You claim, for example, to be interested in
women's rights. We have honour killings; we have arranged marriages against the
wishes of the brides in this province. The Human Rights Tribunal is silent about
that. The Human Rights Tribunal accepts implicitly the two-tier sisterhood
whereby if you are a western woman and you're fired from the strip joint in
Mississauga and you want to kick up a big fuss, they'll take up your case
because you're tormenting some hapless white, male strip joint owner. But if
you're 16-year-old Aqsa Parvez and you get killed in an honour killing, they
accept implicitly that that's a two-tier sisterhood with multicultural
sensitivities.
1350
Ms. Cheri DiNovo: No, that's
simply not true.
Mr. Mark Steyn: No, no. You
brought this up, madam. At the time my case came into the news, there was a
fellow in Toronto who went on the Internet and explicitly urged the killing of a
minister of the crown and Canadian troops, and nobody bothers to investigate him
for hate speech.
Ms. Cheri DiNovo: No more
questions.
The Chair (Mrs. Julia Munro):
Thank you. Mr. Zimmer.
Mr. David Zimmer: Mr. Steyn,
there was a well-known, indeed famous, American jurist, Oliver Wendell Holmes,
who made a statement in which he expressed his view of the limit on free speech
in a case in the 1930s, and I'm wondering if you agree or disagree with this
statement. He said that nobody is free to yell "Fire" in a crowded movie
theatre.
Mr. Mark Steyn: It wasn't the
1930s; it was 1919 that Oliver Wendell Holmes made that statement. It's
interesting, that case. He was an American-
Mr. David Zimmer: I know, but
do you agree with that statement or not?
Mr. Mark Steyn: Let me say
this for a start: He was upholding espionage charges against an anti-war
protester. So by his measure, thousands of Canadian liberals would have been
rounded up for protesting the war in Afghanistan.
Mr. David Zimmer: But don't
duck the question.
Mr. Mark Steyn: I'm not
ducking the question.
Mr. David Zimmer: Do you
disagree with that statement or agree with it?
Mr. Mark Steyn: Let me come
at it one other way, in which it's not relevant to our discussion-
Mr. David Zimmer: No, no, but
then answer the statement.
Mr. Mark Steyn: Because
Oliver-
The Chair (Mrs. Julia Munro):
Excuse me. Could I just have one speaker at a time?
Mr. Mark Steyn: Oliver
Wendell Holmes said that the most stringent protection of free speech would not
protect a man in falsely-falsely-shouting "Fire" in a theatre. The problem with
the Human Rights Tribunal is that falsely shouting "Fire" is not at issue. It
doesn't matter whether the theatre actually is on fire, because under the Human
Rights Tribunal, truth is not a defence.
In my own particular case, no one has ever
pointed to a single fact in the Maclean's article, an excerpt from my book, that
is inaccurate. So essentially-
Mr. David Zimmer: But back to
Holmes's statement, is that a fair limitation on freedom of speech: You can't
yell " Fire" in a movie theatre, just as a general proposition?
Mr. Mark Steyn: As I've tried
to answer you, I think if the theatre is on fire, you're certainly entitled to
point that out. By the way, that, as a metaphor, is simply a ludicrous metaphor.
He was talking about gaslight, 19th century theatres. By 1919, the Winter Garden
on Broadway-I don't assume you were there for Hitchy-Koo of 1917; I wasn't
either-was an electrified theatre, and it wasn't in danger of burning down. The
metaphor is lazy and irrelevant.
Mr. David Zimmer: What about
this, just paraphrasing Holmes: Nobody is free to yell provocative racial
epithets in a multiracial society like Toronto or New York. Would you agree with
that?
Mr. Mark Steyn: I think
society should have a bias that makes it unacceptable to use, for example, the
N-word, as they say down south-
Mr. David Zimmer: How would
you enforce that?
Mr. Mark Steyn: -in public,
but I think-well, that' s the point.
Mr. David Zimmer: How would
you enforce that?
Mr. Mark Steyn: A man, a
member of the British Foreign-
Mr. David Zimmer: I agree
with that. How would you enforce it?
Mr. Mark Steyn: A member of
the British Foreign Office was arrested over the weekend for yelling, "Effing
Jews. Kill the effing Jews."
Mr. David Zimmer: How would
you enforce it?
Mr. Mark Steyn: I don't think
he should have been arrested. I think he should be publicly shamed. This is not
a hateful province. This is not a jurisdiction where people openly insult and
use racist epithets. But what happens when you accord your tribunal the power to
regulate speech is that you replace a social ill, people using racial epithets,
with a worse ill. It's far worse to allow government the sole power to arbitrate
what is acceptable speech or not. If a guy uses the N-word in a bar, I would
rather somebody slugged him on the chin rather than him being dragged up before
your tribunal.
Mr. David Zimmer: Let me ask
just one last question. I understood your point. Your feeling is that an
individual right should trump a group right, that you're an absolutist on that
point, and I understand that. Now, supposing we have not a group right versus an
individual right or individual freedom, but we have an individual right that's
in conflict with an individual right of free speech. How would you settle that
one? I understand you're saying that in a group right versus an individual right
of free speech, the individual right should trump it. Let's take an individual
right versus an individual right of free speech. How would you balance that?
Mr. Mark Steyn: I don't
understand that question without something more specific. For example, my right
to free speech: If I say that you like to dress in women's clothing and go out
and pick up truckers on the QEW and that is not true, you have the right to sue
me for libel. But if I say, in a more general sense, that I happen to disagree
with your political views or whatever, then that's simply a matter of
opinion.
Free societies should not be in the business
of criminalizing opinion. When you go down that road, all you do is lead to the
situation that you have in, say, Saudi Arabia. In Saudi Arabia, you can't start
a newspaper and print what you think, so if you object to the House of Saud, the
only thing you can do is blow stuff up.
I think, actually, we don't need sensitivity
training in this jurisdiction; we need insensitivity training. We need to learn
to rub along in a much more agreeable, rough-and-tumble fashion.
Mr. David Zimmer: Just my
last thought, then, back to this paraphrasing of Holmes: Nobody is free to yell
provocative racial epithets on a busy intersection in Toronto or New York.
Mr. Mark Steyn: I
disagree-
Mr. David Zimmer: Would you
let that person yell a racial epithet or not?
Mr. Mark Steyn: I think that
if someone wants to yell things about Jews, obviously, in this town, they're
free to do so. They were yelling explicitly eliminationist, genocidal rhetoric
about Jews just a couple of weeks ago on the streets of Toronto, and neither the
Ontario Human Rights Tribunal nor the Ontario Human Rights Commission seems in
the least bit interested in it. So you are identifying essentially something
that is not the business-the Ontario Human Rights Tribunal is not in the
business of people shouting explicitly eliminationist, genocidal rhetoric on the
streets of Toronto. That's not what this tribunal or its commission does. They
couldn't care less about that.
Mr. David Zimmer: Thank you.
I think that's it.
The Chair (Mrs. Julia Munro):
One minute left.
Mrs. Liz Sandals: I just
wondered if we could get a bit of clarification. Is it your understanding that
one of the prohibited grounds that the tribunal is dealing with is freedom of
speech? It was my understanding that that's strictly a federal issue.
Mr. Mark Steyn: No. I was
caught-
Mrs. Liz Sandals: Not the
commission; the tribunal.
Mr. Mark Steyn: Yes. I was
caught, obviously, in the changeover. Essentially, Barbara Hall, I think, issued
her press release about me-
Mrs. Liz Sandals: But you
would agree with me that the tribunal has not entered into this area?
Mr. Mark Steyn: Ah. No, no,
no. But this is the interesting thing about her press release: She thinks these
are exactly the kinds of issues that the commission ought to be bringing before
the tribunal, as it does-
Mrs. Liz Sandals: And is it
in the Ontario Human Rights Code that this is a prohibited ground-freedom of
speech?
Mr. Mark Steyn: I would not
read it there as such, but given the expansion-
Mrs. Liz Sandals: So you
would agree that this is not terribly relevant to the Ontario Human Rights
Tribunal?
Mr. Mark Steyn: No, no, no.
Given the expansion of the definition that has occurred in the years since the
Taylor decision, and given the commission's own words on the kinds of cases it
hopes to bring to the tribunal, I think it's clear that the tribunal will be
dealing with essentially freedom-of-expression cases, whatever the Ontario code
says, in the years ahead.
The Chair (Mrs. Julia Munro):
Thank you very much. That concludes the time that we have available. Thank you,
Mr. Steyn, for being here.
Mr. Mark Steyn: Thank
you.