Excerpts from the interview:
NEWSMAX: Do you think we are heading for war with Iran.
JOHN BOLTON: I think there is little doubt that Iran has mastered the
Science and technology it needs to enrich uranium. That means that the time and
the manner in which it acquires a nuclear weapons capability is entirely within
its discretion. It’s only a matter of resources, and with oil at 90 dollars a
barrel plus, Iran doesn’t lack for resources. That means that if the president
follows through on his view that Iranian nuclear weapons are unacceptable then
we are at a decision point very quickly on whether to use military force.
My preference would be regime change in Iran. I think there is a real
possibility that the different democratic regime would make the decision that
pursuing nuclear weapons is not really in Iran’s interest. But that’s nothing
you can turn on or off like a light switch. So because of the wasted time
allowing the Europeans to try to negotiate Iran out of nuclear weapons, I think
our options are very few. And if the choice is between nuclear Iran and use of
force, I think we have to look at the use of force.
NEWSMAX: Why do we have so few options now?
BOLTON: Because by deferring to the EU 3 these last four plus, almost
five years. we have limited our ability to do other things to see if we can get
effective sanctions at the Security Council. I don’t think sanctions are going
to have a chance of being effective any longer. Especially not UN sanctions. And
this long period of time has put Iran in a much more favorable position. It’s a
classic case study why diplomacy is not cost-free. If we had been working on
regime change effectively over the last four or more years we would be in a lot
different position today.
It’s not just the nuclear program. It’s Iran’s support for terrorism in
Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon, the Gaza strip, including their activity
particularly against our forces in Afghanistan and Iraq. So if steps are not
taken soon, Iran and other nations in the region will draw the conclusion that
we are not serious about stopping Iran’s nuclear program, we are not serious
about stopping Iranian support for terrorism and they will draw the appropriate
conclusions, all of which will be negative to American interest.
NEWSMAX: Why hasn’t [Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice] done anything
to help the pro-freedom movement in Iran? Why has the $75 million program to
help the pro-democracy movement had so little impact?
BOLTON: I think there is enormous bureaucratic opposition to doing
anything overtly or covertly from both the State and CIA bureaucracies. And as
on so many other issues, I think, Secretary Rice has adopted the prevailing view
within the bureaucracy, which have been reflected in our deference to the
Europeans and exclusively diplomatic approach for four years.
NEWSMAX: Do you think she is convinced we can do nothing to help the
pro democracy movement? After all this was her program.
BOLTON: This is completely inexplicable to me. On the overt side she
announced it with great fanfare, but as we can see with the recent resignation
of the head of the program at the State Department, it has gone nowhere. The
argument that identifying Iranian Diaspora groups as being linked to our program
makes it disadvantageous for them is belied by the statements of many of these
groups who say ‘we need the help and we’re pleased to have it.’ But the outcome
has been no overt program of support for democracy and no clandestine program to
overthrow the regime. So in effect, we have been doing nothing for getting on to
five years now except deferring to the Europeans
NEWSMAX: So this leaves us basically with war, or a nuclear armed
Iran--
BOLTON? --Or regime change, if we have the time. The problem is we
likely do not have the amount of time that would be required. If we only had
been more active over the past several years we might not be faced with the
unhappy alternative of having to use force.
NEWSMAX: How do you see this scenario developing? How do we get to the
point of using military force? What happens next?
BOLTON: I think we are very close to a decision point. There are all
kinds of estimates of when Iran will actually have a nuclear capability. They
are all based on assumptions. So if some of those assumptions turn out to be
wrong, the Iranians can have the weapons capability much earlier than the
estimates would lead you to believe.
I personally do not believe in just in-time non-proliferation. There’s too
much of a risk there that intelligence and analysis can be wrong by understating
the threat as well as by overstating the threat. Moreover the Iranians are
obviously aware of the risk they run and I think every day that goes by gives
them more of an opportunity to harden their existing facilities such as at
Natanz, the uranium enrichment facility, or to build completely alternative
facilities of which we have no knowledge. Our lack of reliable intelligence
inside Iran is substantial. That doesn’t make me feel better; it makes me more
nervous. Time is working against us. Every day the military option is postponed
makes it riskier that we will actually use force but fail to achieve our
objectives.
NEWSMAX: I’ve just written a book called Shadow Warriors that talks
about people in the CIA and the State Department who have attempted to undermine
the president’s policies. Do you think the $75 million that Condi announced to
help the pro-freedom movement in Iran was undermined by people who don’t agree
with the policy?
BOLTON: I don’t think there is any doubt of it. There are many people
at the State Department who simply don’t like the concept of regime change
whether done through pro-democracy groups or done clandestinely. They especially
don’t like a program that could be said to undercut the European efforts of
diplomacy. I think the failure of the $75 million program sends an enormous
signal through out the bureaucracy that resistance can work. This is going to
have negative consequences not just for the situation in Iran but for a range of
other policy issues around the world.
NEWSMAX: So the shadow warriors won this round?
BOLTON: I think there is no doubt about it. I
\don’t profess to know
everything that went on, but you can tell when the director of the program
resigns and basically says, ‘I can’t make it work,’ that there is obviously
something badly wrong.
NEWSMAX: How is this Administration’s track record on hiring and
keeping conservatives in key positions?
BOLTON: I think it is unfortunately not very good. I talk about this
in my book, about what happens when Presidential personnel doesn’t focus on the
very difficult circumstances appointees face within the State department, which
is one of the savviest bureaucracies in Washington experts in co-opting,
seducing or subverting political appointees who try to pursue policies it
disagrees with. And I think in this Administration, it has had considerable
success. I use the example of North Korea, and what’s happened to our policy
there. What has happened since I wrote the book is an even more graphic example
of the bureaucracy in effect turning the President’s policy in effect in a 180
degree U-turn.
NEWSMAX: Do you think the North Korean have agreed to talk and to shut
down the reactor because they have sold off the critical elements?
BOLTON: I think they are doing the same thing they did under the
[1994] Agreed Framework. I think they have been planning to cheat on their
declaration and their program and hope they get away with it, which they will if
we don’t have an adequate verification program.
And I think this facility [in Syria] that the Israelis bombed on September 6
is an indication of yet another alternative, which is either to clone the
Yongbyon reactor or outsource some of the nuclear weapons program. How better to
hide your North Korean program than to build it in Syria where nobody is
looking!
Just this morning there was a story that it may be harder to shut done
Yongbyon than people thought. Now this will extend into the next year, which I
think is part of North Korea’s pattern of slow-rolling the program. But which
also shows something which I and others have been saying for some time, which is
that Yongbyon is at or beyond its useful life. Part of the reason they have
difficulties extracting the fuel rods that are in there now is that the whole
facility is in terrible repair, which means they agreeing to freeze it or even
to dismantle it is not such a big concession from the North Koreans. They may
already have been able to extract as much plutonium as they were going to be
able to. Shutting down a broken facility is hardly a sign of good faith.
NEWSMAX: There is a lot of dispute about North Korea’s uranium
program. You write in your book that the North Koreans talked to our delegation
in 2002 about the uranium enrichment program. Do you think that is what they
transferred to Syria?
BOLTON: It’s hard to say what they’ve transferred. There was no sign
of radiation escaping after the Israeli attack [on Syria], which seems to
indicate that they proceeded before there was any actual enriched uranium or
even unenriched uranium there. Otherwise you would see likely release of
radiation.
In my book, I go through this business of what Jim Kelly confronted the North
Koreans with in 2002, and what the North Koreans said in response. There was no
ambiguity in 2002 about the intelligence. In fact, what happened was that in the
early summer 2002, for a change, all of the intelligence community agreed that
North Korea had embarked on procurement for a uranium enrichment program. That
was what was significant. That after years of disagreement within the
intelligence community, they had reached consensus. And there was no dispute at
that time. Nor is there really dispute about the North Korean reaction to
Kelly’s trip, that they admitted they had a uranium enrichment program. It’s not
just my book. Read Jack Prichard’s book, published by Brookings. He says there
was no ambiguity, and he was there!
I think this is significant, because people are now trying to rewrite
history, to help excuse why the North Koreans are not dissembling when they say
they have no enrichment program. They are trying to lay the groundwork that
there never was a program, so when the North Koreans say they don’t have one
it’s not another example of dissembling.
NEWSMAX: Would their uranium enrichment program have come from
Pakistan, or would they have had access earlier to the technology?
BOLTON: My guess is in part they had some technology from AQ Khan. But
I think it was more of them acting as a general contractor building their own
program, using AQ Khan for pieces of it, as opposed to Libya, who said to AQ
Khan, you are the general contractor, you create the program for us.
NEWSMAX: It really astounds me the lack of information on the Iranian
nuclear program, and the unwillingness of the Intelligence community to talk to
Iranians, even to Iranian exiles.
BOLTON: Since World War II, the Intelligence community has disliked
exiles and dissidents, claiming they are unreliable because they have a
political agenda. This is just self-blindness.
Not only has our human intelligence capability declined dramatically over the
last several decades, there doesn’t seem to be much inclination to want to build
it back up.
Look at Joe Wilson: the best our intelligence community can do is send a
former ambassador to Niger to have tea with officials that say, ‘ so, what’s up
on the uranium front?’ That’s our intelligence community? Forget everything else
about Valerie Plame. That whole story is unbelievable!