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Pakistani Actress Defies Mullah Accusing Her of Immoral Behavior on an Indian Reality TV Show

Comments

[Early Light]

Veena Malik... I link to her site at my blog, and I am a fan of hers on Facebook.

[Shannon Psotta]

This is the most passionate beautiful stand I have heard.... She is amazing and strong and I pray for her to see Christ...

[Islam is a fascist totalitarian death cult and mafia criminal organization]

You know there's something wrong with a religion when it could turn ugly men against beautiful women like that and bring her to tears.

There are times I'd like to see these Islamic countries get nuked because of all their evil and terrorism, but then you remember there's wonderful people like Veera there who are no threat to any of us and you realize the best solution is just to eliminate Islam and it's fanatics who want to force this death cult on all of us.

[Islam is a fascist totalitarian death cult and mafia criminal organization]

(forgot to add) and bring them freedom/democracy like we have in the West and let them choose any other religion to follow or none at all.

That's why the West is superior, people are allowed to think for themselves and choose their own destinies, not have it forced on their by psychopaths who claim to speak for an imaginary creator that no one has ever seen or known.

[Richard]

She's a beautiful apologist for islam. How many times did she try to portray to the cleric an islam that is peaceful? Like Jasser with boobs and big hair. She hit some damn fine talking, er...shouting points though. I like how when the two were totally talking over one another the closed captioning continued to translate her words. I wonder if she needs security around her to be this bold, is she so popular as to be fatwah-proof? Things make you go hmm.

[IAMINFIDEL]

In this day and age when we are sending emissaries made of our hands out to the outer planets it astounds me that there are still cultures which listen to, and act upon the inane mutterings of semi-illiterate mystic savants.

[Islam is a fascist totalitarian death cult and mafia criminal organization]

I don't think she's an apologist, I think she's one of those 'fake muslims' who has tasted freedom (from Islam) but knows she'll be dog-meat if she became an apostate.

So like anyone placed in an extremely oppressive situation, she tries to cheat it by using the more 'gentler/liberal' teachings of Islam against the fundamentalists.

This is why Islam is incredibly effective-there's plenty of verses in the Quran which preach tolerance and all that Kumbaya stuff, which is why gullible non-muslims are duped into thinking Islam is as innocuous as the other religions. It is also why some muslims like Veera butt heads with the pious muslims because, much like the Bible, different groups of muslims take different meanings/interpretations from it.

Christians for instance reject the teachings in the Bible which sanction stoning, genocide, honor-killing and slavery, because they know it's wrong. However the trouble (that us keen anti-Islamists already know) is that the violent passages abrogate/supplant all the previous peaceful ones. So if one was to follow Islam correctly, one would have to reject all the peaceful/tolerant verses and act on the fascist totalitarian supremacist ones.

At the end of the day, muslims are humans just like any of us, except that they've been brainwashed by this evil ideology/mind-virus since birth and so are enslaved by it. Of course the people who suffer the most are women and children as well as us kafirs when muslims go on apeshit.

The world needs to recognize that Islam is evil and outlaw it and democratize Islamic states. That is the only solution to real peace and it will bring to an end the conflict between muslims and non-muslims that was started by a mass murdering pedophile warlord named Mohammad 1400 years ago. And until that occurs, the warring, terrorism, senseless suffering and needless death caused by Islam will continue.

[Islam is a fascist totalitarian death cult and mafia criminal organization]

edit:
*passages in Islam
*go apeshit

[Ray]

All I can say is WOW! Wow, at her passion, wow at her beauty, wow at her sincereity, wow at her inner strength and wow at her telling it like it is...yeah, she may fear telling the real truth about Islam, the truth she knows in her heart to be true once shes seen what western society can bring to her life. But, don't condemn her for being a hypocrite afterall she is just trying to make the best of a very, very difficult situation. I feel sorry for her. To be born into such a crappy society and so-called religion. Look at the cleric? He couldn't get a woman even if he paid for it. Everytime I see such a beautiful creature it becomes very obvious to me as to why muslims keep these women hiding under burqas out of plain sight.

Poor, poor Veena.

[Carroll]

She can come to America and we'll protect her from the lunatics who call themselves muslims.

[Gerald]

Oh yeah. I bet you, you can't protect her in Oklahoma.

[sai]

Firstly Pamela, Im a muslim aspiring journalist, and I have to advise you to differentiate between mad cow disease ridden Islamic fundamentalists, and moderate Muslims like me and Veena Malik,the rock star.
We moderate Muslims are far more in danger of being killed by fanatics, simply because we are peaceful.Period.
We are the educated breed, who integrate,better ourselves, and make a difference.These pro-terrorist fanatics have twisted the most basic of Islamic verses in a state of delusion, and interpreted it as a Jihad, from thousands of years ago.However, the fact that you taint us all with the same brush, and it is jeopardising us modern Muslims, because we are prevented from giving our perspective, struggles, and side of the story.
Secondly, this cleric is a shameless liar, because factually, there is immense support for Veena from muslims all over,men and women, girls and boys.God knows where this cretin is citing his statistics from.
I will state this: it is not the religion, but the people.Muslim states are patriarchal not by religion, but culture. decades of Illiteracy, poverty, and corruption in Muslim states has given way to barbarity.It would have been a complete different story if Muslim governments had invested academically in their people like the Western states have.
Times are changing, the tide it turning, and I have a feeling a new wave of modern Muslims are going to surface soon to fight extremism, because we moderates,frankly have had enough.

[sai]

P.S
I do not wear a headscarf, I deplore the veil, and my father gave me a piece of advice:
'you live your life the way you want.' I have free will.
I have never been forced to do anything against my will,only ever protected by my family.We liberals really do exist, but nazis and Islamic fundamentalists really do not make it easy for us.

[Carroll]

Well Gerald there are other places than Oklahoma. What's the problem there muslims or rednecks?

[JewishOdysseus]

Ms Sai, God bless your efforts, but why do you think "the tide is turning" in YOUR favor? Have you ever seen those photos of Cairo University classes from 1950...Lots of women, none with hijab...Then 1980, lots of women, a few with hijab...Now 2005, ALL with hijab.

I fear the tide is turning against you, and it is frankly a tide of 1000+ years, it is a ponderous force to swim against.

The world needs a LOT more Muslims like your father and you, period.

[Grimcargo]

I was with you til you said Nazis. Because Nazis agree with your Islamic taste for jews.

[looloo]

Your response to Sai, doesn't make sense.

[Carol Eberwein]

America under the leadership of George W.Bush freed 12 million
Muslim women,ONE SMALL STEP FOR ISLAM.IT IS THE WOMEN WITH
POWERFUL LEADERS,VEENA MALIK AMONG THEM,WHO WILL BRING ISLAM
INTO THE MODERN ERA.
PS Moderates never accomplish any change.

[sai]

GrimCargo,
The phrase 'Islamic taste for Jews',is just plain vulgar,it really demeans my efforts. It does make sense to state that Nazis are waging a campaign against peaceful muslims.Listen up.
Here in the UK, the BNP and the EDL, including other fringe groups are targeting muslims based on their appearance i.e headscarves, not as individuals.They also hate the Jews, blacks, Indians, etc too, but are now claiming to align with them to fight extremism.True propaganda opportunists, but due to the fear of widespread Islamic fundamentalism,these nazis are targeting the moderates too.Just check out hate sites such as Stormfront.
Back in the early 90's, the BNP waged a vicious propaganda war campaign against the Jews, claiming that they were planning to take over the world.Now the BNP claims to love Israel and the Jews, with their nazi leader Nick Griffin even stating 'I do not know why I denied the holocaust, and why we waged a campaign.I cannot explain it.So for the time being, everyone is friends until the next outbreak of extremism.
I know moron David Duke loves moron Ahmdinejad, but that is not the case in the UK.Here the Nazis are strategically engaging in a process of elimination.

[sai]

JewishOdyssesus,
Thankyou for your reply.
I have no problem with any woman who wants to wear a headscarf, that is her right.The problem I have with the headscarf is that is does not signify or symbolise anything for me.I do not have to cover anything to prove my faith.
I know that even three decades ago the hijab was rare, and that is because there is a Muslim teaching,'dress modestly',and that is subject to interpretation.Modesty to me is to not have my genitals hanging out, but I wear what I want.I do not feel the need to cover my head, because it is my Muslim right to wear my hair anyway I want,when I want, where I want.Nobody tells me what to do, and that is thanks to my decent, educated parents.
Hijab is a problem to me.All the girls I know who wear a Hijab are hypocrites.They pretend to be submissive muslim girls in front of their parents, and are meeting their boyfriends, drinking, and sleeping around.It is a sad reality.They are caught in a culture clash, and their illiterate primitive parents are oppressing them.I want them to see that wearing a hijab does not prove your faith,it proves nothing.It is just a costume,where Muslims hide behind to the world, but will do everything under the sun.
However, if a woman does wear a hijab, it does mean she is an extremist.For e.g Sana Saleem is a hijabi Pakistani human rights activist, who is notable for her amazing support of homosexuals and gay rights, even with her headscarf, she is a rock star!
I want you to know that the mentality is changing,but we moderates just need to find a solid voice,it will happen oneday.I can certainly hold my own.
Britain needs to segregate the extremists from the moderates, and needs to deport them.Period.

[sai]

Miss Carol E,
You have such a defeatist attitude,one day moderates will make the change.It takes time. Usama Hasan, is an imam, who is staunchly against Sharia law, and the hijab.He has received death threats.If we moderates keep running away, the terrorists will win,we cannot run away.
For e.g like myself a number of Muslims oppose sharia law in europe and other western states, because it is irrelevant and subject to interpretation.My sharia would give women all the rights in the world, freedom, education,freedom of expression,how they want to live life.An extremist muslim man would oppress, suffocate, and eliminate all of women rights, and their version of sharia would even allow murder, rape etc.It is all about interpretation.A battle of the educated VS the terrorist illiterates.The best thing is not to introduce Sharia, because I want to live in the UK and America, and follow UK and US law, not sharia.Sharia does not even work in Muslim states.Muslim Women and men will oneday make modern/liberal Islam the only Islam.
Till then I will keep my fingers crossed.

[Islam is a fascist totalitarian death cult and mafia criminal organization]

Sai, there was a time when I would've said "all muslims are the same" but I've witnessed very heroic muslims, like Tariq Fatah for instance (who lives under death threats from the fundamentalists) that take on the radicals because they reject what they bring.

In fact they've been instrumental in helping well-intentioned westerners to realize that their co-religionists really are crazy and dangerous and that certain teachings of Islam are a threat. So I hope people always keep in mind that for every terrorist and black flag waving jihadi chanting about our doom and destruction, there is another muslim shocked, disheartened and living in fear, who is a friend to us non-muslims.

Now with that said, the 'radical' muslims in your creed follow Islam correctly because that is the example of the prophet and his teachings. The radicals also hold all the power and when anyone tries to reform Islam and make it more peaceful-they lose the argument (and their head) because Islamic texts support them and not the reformists. After all who can re-write the divine words of God/Allah? That's heresy.

Also it is not Pamela's (or any non-muslim's) fault that genuinely decent muslims like yourself get painted with the same brush as the radicals-she merely exposes the truth about Islam and it's true adherents-the 'radicals', so blame them. You realize if you reject jihad-a pillar of Islam or sharia, then you're an infidel like us right?

Don't forget that Pamela has often featured the plight of muslims suffering at the hands of the radicals-especially women. She also was a key supporter of Rifqa Bary who had to flee her parents who were trying to kill her for leaving Islam. So don't try to paint Pamela as being against all muslims when clearly the record shows the opposite.

I vehemently disagree with your claim that it is not religion but the culture that is at fault. Islamic cultures are based entirely on your religion. In Islam there is no separation of church and state or between secular and theocratic. These cultures are ultra-patriarchal because Islam and it's texts are that way.

Being a muslim who's well-intentioned, you still wear ideological blinders and that is limiting your scope of thought. If you really want to reform Islam and make it 'modern', you'd have to tear out all the verses in the Quran/Hadiths inciting warfare, conquest, hate against non-muslims and women but then you'd be left with almost nothing but a few pages. You'd also have to reject Mohammad as a prophet-because as we know he was a child molester (spare me the apologetics, I'm well versed on this), thief, enslaver, mass-murderer, warlord and so on.

My point being, Islam is the problem as well as those muslims who follow it faithfully and support jihad/sharia law. I don't care what people believe in their homes, you can pray to aliens, rocks, pink unicorns-that's up to you. But as soon as you try to force that on us and try to change our laws/culture because of your beliefs, then you're headed for a major conflict with us. This is why Islam is on the minds of millions of people now in a negative way because we all know it's goal is global conquest.

While Christianity was once as barbaric as Islam, it has gone through a reformation because the teachings of Jesus were genuinely peaceful and encouraged brotherhood among all people (Islam only does it for muslims). Jesus also died for us while Mohammad would like us to die for him and his evil death cult. So I think reform is next to impossible in Islam. It needs to be done away with completely. If you study Islam dispassionately and as skeptically as I have, you'll come to agree with me on this.

Last point, Islam is a fascist totalitarian Arab supremacist movement with an agenda for global conquest. You could take away Allah but Islam would remain as much a threat as Nazism or Communism-because it's goal is to force it's world view, system of law/government, cultural mores on the rest of us. Now good muslims like you need to decide if you want to support or oppose this enterprise, because whether you reject jihad or not, if you still approve of Islam's conquest of non-muslim lands, then it'd make you an adversary.

[w]

if you google image her there are a couple of topless shots.
not sure what the are referring to.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://fashionscandal.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/veena-malik3a.jpg&imgrefurl=http://fashionscandal.com/index.php/tag/veena-malik/&usg=__VkqSHsDbKo_64bQhyUnPQ_ZDse0=&h=732&w=485&sz=23&hl=en&start=104&zoom=1&tbnid=B1joS8RHm4Cx1M:&tbnh=129&tbnw=82&ei=NmaLTbirK4TksQO2nY2iCg&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dveena%2Bmalik%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DG%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D600%26gbv%3D2%26tbm%3Disch0%2C2821&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=585&vpy=221&dur=508&hovh=248&hovw=164&tx=91&ty=132&oei=DGaLTYmsOoOksQPO-tWpCg&page=7&ndsp=17&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:104&biw=1024&bih=600">http://fashionscandal.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/veena-malik3a.jpg&imgrefurl=http://fashionscandal.com/index.php/tag/veena-malik/&usg=__VkqSHsDbKo_64bQhyUnPQ_ZDse0=&h=732&w=485&sz=23&hl=en&start=104&zoom=1&tbnid=B1joS8RHm4Cx1M:&tbnh=129&tbnw=82&ei=NmaLTbirK4TksQO2nY2iCg&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dveena%2Bmalik%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DG%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D600%26gbv%3D2%26tbm%3Disch0%2C2821&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=585&vpy=221&dur=508&hovh=248&hovw=164&tx=91&ty=132&oei=DGaLTYmsOoOksQPO-tWpCg&page=7&ndsp=17&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:104&biw=1024&bih=600">http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://fashionscandal.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/veena-malik3a.jpg&imgrefurl=http://fashionscandal.com/index.php/tag/veena-malik/&usg=__VkqSHsDbKo_64bQhyUnPQ_ZDse0=&h=732&w=485&sz=23&hl=en&start=104&zoom=1&tbnid=B1joS8RHm4Cx1M:&tbnh=129&tbnw=82&ei=NmaLTbirK4TksQO2nY2iCg&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dveena%2Bmalik%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DG%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D600%26gbv%3D2%26tbm%3Disch0%2C2821&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=585&vpy=221&dur=508&hovh=248&hovw=164&tx=91&ty=132&oei=DGaLTYmsOoOksQPO-tWpCg&page=7&ndsp=17&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:104&biw=1024&bih=600

[Islam is a fascist totalitarian death cult and mafia criminal organization]

The EDL are not racist, they have many non-white members, including a Jewish and Hindu division, they also have divisions for Gays. The simply oppose Islam for the same reasons we do here (as I stated above).

You're right about the BNP they are racists but it is a fringe group that has little chance of gaining mainstream support since the UK has dealt with fascists before and rejects them.

You started off well Sai, but I'm wondering where you stand now. You need to do some more research on the EDL before spreading misinformation and again, being a moderate muslim you should understand why the EDL exists-they oppose the same people (radicals) that you presumably do.

[Wana]

sai
I am a Muslim slave by birth...but I refuse to let the chains hurt me or eat my soul notwithstanding 10 years of DAILY indoctrination at school...the reason why the kuffar tar us with the same broad brush is simple and surely you understand: because we LIE, lie and lie to OURSELVES (even Veena is doing it) and we are too craven (yup, the thought of having these b------s behead my children is the Achilles heel (I have been threatened already)as they beheaded that 3 month old baby girl of the Fogel family, along with her parents and brothers in the dark of night. What mighty soldiers of Allah we have here committing such acts in the name of Allah and ON
OUR BEHALF and in the name of the RELIGION OF PEACE! You see my definition of "counter terror" is a more apt one for such satan's spawn. The Soviets used this "method" in Beirut (and elsewhere; fyi I'm no fan of them) in '83 when Hizballah made ONE mistake, one time w/them and ended up with body parts delivered in two suitcases. Not another Russian was touched on the streets of Beirut. Lesson learned. If Muslims such as yourself are indeed fed up at a minimum you need to speak out. Better yet, Muslims who abhor such scum as the mullahs mostly are need to apply "counter terror" It is the only "tool" these fellows truly appreciate as --underneath their machismo they are the ultimate cowards and bullies.

[Islam is a fascist totalitarian death cult and mafia criminal organization]

We don't have time to waste to reform Islam while muslims numbers keep rapidly growing along with their demands for more Islamification of the West and as I explained in a post above it'll be probably impossible to reform because Islam is a cult founded on an evil man. Parts of Europe have already become Islamified/conquered territory-that must end.

Seeing that you have more in common with us than with mainstream muslims, I'd encourage you to join our cause. I used to think that deportation would be enough but all that means is we'd be passing on our problem to others and muslim women will continue to suffer terribly in Islamic states which will never get reformed.

While I still think deportation will be required, we should also work to ban Islam throughout the world. Now if people want to keep praying to Allah that's fine, but most of the teachings have to go. That of course is something I'm sure muslims like you would have a problem with but I have yet to see any credible reformation movement in Islam or an acceptable revision of Islam's religious texts. Most muslims don't want to change Islam-they like it the way it is so you'll have a hard time convincing them they should reform it.

[juniper]

Wana, you speak the truth. A Jew was part of a demonstration in London, about 10 people holding banners peacefully against a meeting of Jew and Israel-haters. One of these haters came outside and attacked the Jew, biting him on the face. Peaceful protests achieve little but to show the enemy they can bully us.

[sai]

Dear Islam is a F.......(YOUR NAME IS WAY TOO LONG)
I could sit here and try to convince you all day that Islam is not an evil religion,and the Muslim world is split into the moderates and extremists, but I would be wasting my time.There is so much man made laws in Islam that have been implemented by extremists to restrict progression in the muslim communities, and unfortunately people believe them.You are right to state that parts need to be banned, because these parts are only a manifestation of delusional terrorists, not actual muslims.
Education is the key to the world, and that is missing in all Muslim states.Islam only expects one to pray,do charity, have faith,pilgrimage,and fasting.It does not expect anything else.Everything else is made up lies to serve Muslim extremists.
I could join your cause, but frankly the thing that prevents me from joining is that Pam Geller has not done a good job in her neutral approach to moderates.She speaks of all of us as though we are the same, we are all Jihadist terrorists.You treat me with sheer suspicion, and that is a bother, because you can see that I am an educated individual,with logic and reason.
Tommy Robinson from the EDL, is apparently a former BNP member, but more than that, he assaulted a police officer,and served jail time, which is disgusting and antithetical to British patriotism.
Also the EDL cannot decide what their ideologies are.They only hate extremists, and welcome moderates, but their actions tell otherwise.They cannot tell the difference between moderates and extremists, which is testament to the many racist rantings from their supporters.Also Roberta Moore, leader of the JDL, hates all Muslims,as stated by her, so I think I should steer clear of such groups.Blacks and Hindus, Sikhs are part of EDL, but they too hate all Muslims due to personal experience,and would not see me any different.
I do not want to be part of a group of beer guzzling,welfare dependent,smoking skin head imitating,thugs.They are hardly the creme de la creme of UK society.Call me a snob, maybe I am.There needs to be well dressed,well spoken educated people who will not discriminate against me, then maybe I will rethink.
It is not spreading misinformation, but fact.

[juniper]

I am always suspicious when mozlems start talking about Jews. They think they can compare themselves to Jews, and pretend to be victims. Shut up about Jews, Sai, do not mention them. They are nothing to do with you: it is bad enough you are trying to murder them when you can, and deny Israel the right to exist! Mozlems are the most anti-semitic of all! You know nothing of BNP or EDL, just the lies all the lefties and Jew-haters her in UK spread!

Let us talk about mozlems, here and now, in UK, London: I lived in a lovely part of east London before a mosque was built across the road. Soon I was being assaulted by "young men" who looked like the Taliban, blocked from walking on the pavement by women, not served in certain shops, in London! Mozlems parked their cars in our driveway when they went to their mosque. On the station I used mozlems sprayed a huge swastika with a star of Davis in the middle, writing, Kill Jews, across it.
These mosque mozlems organised a murder of an old imam, to get him out of the way so they could take over. The only time the mozlems in my area got their comeuppance was when the Russians started to arrive!
Then you all start to cry,"islamophobia!!" Read the story of the boy who cried wolf. Because that is coming soon!

[Wana]

Only the truth will set us all FREE...as corny as that may sound or perhaps as maudlin: it is the truth. Even painful truth is still truth. I'd rather seek it and acknowledge it than remain in darkness. Heard about that "biting" and it infuriated me.Did the violent perpetrator go to jail???The level of hate towards Jews (followed by that towards teh Copts, Chaldeans, Christians) that is currently being propagated in the Muslim world only occurred once before: when Muhmmad went to Yathrib and the Jewish tribes there, and later in Khybar, refused to recognize him as the messiah. His hopes turned to hate and carnage. These are historical events...verified and remembered far and wide. To include the remnants of these tribes that underestimated the strength of the enemy, its deceptive tactics, and due to infighting and treason, were defeated. Events that have led to much bloodshed and violence in the name of the new "faith."

[Wana]

Only the truth will set us all FREE...as corny as that may sound or perhaps as maudlin: it is the truth. Even painful truth is still truth. I'd rather seek it and acknowledge it than remain in darkness. Heard about that "biting" and it infuriated me.Did the violent perpetrator go to jail???The level of hate towards Jews (followed by that towards teh Copts, Chaldeans, Christians) that is currently being propagated in the Muslim world only occurred once before: when Muhmmad went to Yathrib and the Jewish tribes there, and later in Khybar, refused to recognize him as the messiah. His hopes turned to hate and carnage. These are historical events...verified and remembered far and wide. To include the remnants of these tribes that underestimated the strength of the enemy, its deceptive tactics, and due to infighting and treason, were defeated. Events that have led to much bloodshed and violence in the name of the new "faith."

[juniper]

I thought htid thread realted to this Pakistani mozlem woman who had the guts to stand up to the old mullah and tell him what a hypocrite he was, for watching her!

But I see here we have something with another agenda, a member of "expose racism etc EDL". Some waste of space who is practising taqqiya/lying, pretending it is moderate and using that as a base to attack individuals.

Do you know Tommy Robinson or Roberta Moore? Because the only people like you with a complete obsession with them are the mozlem defence league and expose groups.

Go back to your cave, liar and await the mahdi.

[sai]

Dear Islam is a F (my hand is getting tired,I am going to stop writing soon),
You are right, Pamela has featured the suffering of Muslims at the hand of other Muslims, honor killings, murder, rape, but there is always an element of Islamophobia in it.Pam Geller expects all Muslims to abandon and denounce Islam.I am not wholly blaming Pam G,I know she fears the spread of extremism like me, but fear is a dangerous emotion which leads individuals to do questionable acts.
I think it should be more a case of reclaiming it back from the terrorists.I also think that anyone who wants to convert to other religions from Islam should,its their human right.I have never needed to denounce religion, because as I said before, I am blessed to be in a decent family which loves me, and have never forced anything on me.We have a good balance.
On the case of Prophet Muhammed,extremists have also translated the Koran from arabic, a language that is not understood by the muslim world,deliberately stating he married a child.No, Ayesha was at least 14 -15, not 6 like they claim,when the marriage was consummated, thousands of years ago.It is the child perverts who do so, and no, it is the dark side of the religion, but again it is lies to serve extremists.Extremist Muslims are the enemy of Muslims, and I wish that they see it is not UK,USA and other european states.
Rifqa Bary case was heartbreaking,I am glad she is safe.
I will state this before parting:one day peace will arise.

Take care everyone.

[PC]

I am with you Juniper...
This liar should indeed go back to his cave and await the mahdi.

[sai]

Juniper,
You may want to improve your grammatical skills, and vocabulary before sending vitriolic statements my way.I am a peaceful person,you seem to be irked by that.Clearly your racist leanings restrict you from engaging in political and intellectual discourse with me.Now the fact your street is overtaken with a mosque is my fault?how?generalisations are dangerous.You sound schizophrenic and paranoid.
I would go live in a cave, but I live in a beautiful house, surrounded by my prized chanel bag collection, and Christian louboutins.I am such a lucky girl!
Also, I am a supporter of Veena Malik,you seemed to have missed that.
You on the other hand, need to brush up on your gentlemanly skills when talking to a lady.

[Wana]

Sai: This reply is AIMED right at YOU. Not sure what kind of Muslim you are. You may be more dangerous than the overt jihadis with your seemingly "civilized" presentation here. You KNOW you can't fool another Muslim and more and more you can't even fool the kuffar (shukr Allah!)who are smart and can read the growing plethora of books on such topics as our shared religion of peace. Amin.
You are just like Veena Malik: in denial and fear. Yet, you have the gall to (in essence) accuse Pamela Geller of being a fear monger when she has put her very own life on the line. Nice try.
FYI, our Prophet Muhammad, PBUH, married and had many concubines AFTER Khadija died, not before. Ayesha was 6 at marriage and it was consummated at 9. PLEASE don't stay in the REAL jahiliyyah (as distinguished from the jahiliyyah of Qutb)go and buy a fellow Muslim's famous biography on the rasul allah titled:
The Life of Muhammad by Ibn Ishaq (d:151AH) Translated by A.Guillaume
Read the Bukhari hadith and ofcourse our glorious Quran (not just fathiha and ikhlas) Then come back and apologize for spreading falsehoods even about the Prophet and his child brides. Sheikhs Qaradawi, Hussein et al would all take your statement as blasphemy on the great prophet himself. now we can't have that can we?? FYI: Reinvention is NOT the solution to OUR (Muslim) problem)
Oh, and I KNOW how to ascertain a so-called "moderate" Muslim from a "jihadi" one: your actions and the company you keep (and your family keeps): Any non-Muslim friends and family members???

[Linda Rivera]

sai,

First of all, I want to say that I love PEACEFUL Muslims, just like the majority of the people in this world!

I'm very sad to see you say bad things about the EDL ! The English Defense League are NOT racists! NOT anti-Muslim! Peaceful Muslims are welcome in the EDL! The EDL are made up of people of many religions, Christians, Hindus, Jews, atheists, etc. The EDL get physically attacked by Muslims!

The EDL are lied about and demonized by the mainstream media and unjustly persecuted by the police because of their courageous, ethical stand. At demonstrations, the EDL hold signs against Islamic sharia law. The EDL also hold British and Israeli flags. They support Israel! EDL leaders gave a wonderful speech recently in support of jihad-embattled little Israel. Here in America, we support, justice, security, human rights and freedom for ALL people!

Long live Israel! Long live America! Long live the Free World.

[Jew Lover]

"The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death)." -- Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88 = Mo @ 54 raped Aisha @ 9

Mo used to fondle nubile Aisha in the bathtub as well once she began to menstruate. He would order to her put on an Izar (dress worn below waste). Bukhari Volume 1 Book 6 Number 298 = When Mo was unable to rape nubile Aisha, he would fondle the child

Were Muslim women provided the basic human right of marrying the person of their choice (Muslim or non-Muslim) and if people were allowed to leave Islam without the required death penalty for apostasy, Islam would collapse. (Bukharri Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57: "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."

Memri TV is always exciting - makes MMA (mixed martial arts) rather boring in comparison.

[Ariel]

There's nothing in the Bible about honor killing.

[Ariel]

The only thing "barbaric" about early Christianity was the way early Christians were martyred. They were used as human torches, pulled in two by horses, crucified upside down, cut in half, etc. Perhaps you're referring to the Crusades? They were not Christian, but rather Catholic.

[Richard]

{Robot B-9 voice}\Non sequitor - Does not compute.
/

How is your reply in any way responsive to something I've written? Just asking.

[John]

Fundamentalists are like Muslims.Steal the Catholic bible and sow hatred for Catholics.

[Thank G-d for Veena]

Sometimes a frog is a prince. But this mufti frog is just a cold ugly reptile.

[Ariel]

Are you sure you're going to heaven when you die? How do you even get to heaven? Is it 72 virgins for you too? You're really not a lucky girl because purses can't make you happy and in any event you can't take them with you when you die. The God who created you, who gives you your next breath, knew that mankind is too sinful to be allowed into heaven, and He loved us all so much that He sent His only Son to die in our place, to pay the penalty for our sins, for your sins 2,000 years ago. Eternal life in heaven is an absolutely free gift. You don't have to earn it! All God asks you to do is believe - that Jesus is the Son of God, that He died for your sins and rose from the dead. Period. But, as with any gift, you must accept it. To do it, simply pray and ask Jesus to be your Savior, forgive your sins and save you from hell when you die. God said there was only one way to heaven, through Jesus and pretty soon now we're all going to be finding that out. Please say the prayer? May God bless you.

[telly]

I don't know if you are correct, Richard. But I love the "Jasser with boobs" line.

[telly]

There is a point to be made. If anyone does not know where the Bible came from, and in my opinion, why Christianity exists in it's present form, I suggest you check it out.

[telly]

I think she was including Nazis and Islamists in the same group.

[Amillennialist]

If Muslims have been butchering, raping, and enslaving non-Muslims (and Muslim apostates, women, and little girls) for fourteen hundred years in obedience to Allah and his genocidal pedophile prophet, then "Islamophobia" is grammatically-impossible.

(You do know what a "phobia" is, don't you?)

[Amillennialist]

Islam is a fascist . . .

Your comments about Islam are correct; your characterization of the Bible and Christianity is not.

The Bible commands neither genocide, honor killing, nor slavery. Stoning was a means of capital punishment under the Mosaic Law for the nation of Israel only. (There were no electric chairs, lethal injections, nor firing squads in those days. No, death is never pretty.)

There was a one-time command to war against the inhabitants of the cities of Canaan; this was because of their previous attacks against helpless Israel and their great sin (you do know what their worship of Molech involved, don't you?). (It is worth noting that Israel later faced the same fate for the same sins.)

Slavery was ubiquitous; the laws set up under Moses were to ameliorate its harmful effects, not to promote it.

[Amillennialist]

By the way, Christ died to take away sins, giving us a New and better covenant.

[Islam is a fascist totalitarian death cult and mafia criminal organization]

Dear Sai, at first it seemed you were a genuine moderate muslim woman who was disgusted by the hateful teachings in her religion, but as others here have noted you've come with a pretty clear agenda, to bash Pamela, the EDL and others working to defend our civilization from Islamification.

Tommy Robinson and his family has been harassed by the UK police, false charges have been laid against him, illegal searches and seizures of his property have been conducted, why? To shut him up because they are under the illusion that if opposition to Islam would fade, then peace will magically return. You need to provide proof he was a former BNP member, but regardless his organization as I already stated permits anyone to join so long as they oppose the Islamification of their country.

You'd be wasting your time trying to convince me that Islam is not evil when we have 1400 years of recorded history to show that it has killed more people, caused more death and destruction than Nazism and all the other fascist ideologies combined.

While Islam is very evil ideology, that doesn't mean all muslims are. The good muslims are always welcome to join our ranks but when push comes to shove and it eventually will, the choice will be stark, either you're with us or the Islamists and at that point we won't be looking to reform Islam but to eliminate it.

I don't have the time and interest to deal with each of your points but you suggested that somehow the extremists 'made up' all the violent verses. I find this pretty typical of apologist muslims, they act as if those passages which call for the hate and murder of non-muslims don't exist and are a figment of our imagination. Now either you think you're being clever and are fooling us or you really are stupid and gullible. And you don't sound stupid to me, so you're putting on an act.

You should step back and think about what you're defending-it is nothing more than words on a page (Islam) and a sick culture that was spawning by this evil ideology-it's all vapor. If Islam disappeared tomorrow, the world could go back to modernizing itself, but for now Islam threatenings to undo centuries of human progress in human rights, technological development, systems of law and government and so forth and put us back in the Dark Ages. We're not about to let that happen.

So instead of thinking you're fooling us with your subversive influence operation here, maybe you should listen to what everyone here is telling you. I doubt you will since you seem pretty brainwashed but that's your choice. There will come a day I am sure where the dialog between muslims and non-muslims will end and things will get very ugly.

[Islam is a fascist totalitarian death cult and mafia criminal organization]

(To complete my thought), so good muslims better be sure about which side they want to be on, either they're with the fundamentalists or with those of us who oppose them and their agenda to Islamify the world. Once the West realizes that Islam is today's Nazism-then it will be deal with accordingly.

edit in post above:

*that was spawned
*for now Islam threatens to undo...

[Islam is a fascist totalitarian death cult and mafia criminal organization]

You don't know your Bible very well:

Lev 21:9 "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire."

"And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 21:17)

"For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)

Richard she was replying to me. :)

[looloo]

I don't understand how you can be a Muslim believer and be moderate, and I am not being sarcastic. I have read the Koran, you would have to deny most of it to be a "liberal" Muslim. I know its difficult to reject our traditions, but our desire to hold on to tradition can keep us from what is really good and true.

[Islam is a fascist totalitarian death cult and mafia criminal organization]

Sai, learn to use the REPLY button when you want to respond to people, so you don't have to type out the whole name, plus your post will follow the conversation.

Well get used to us being 'Islamophobic' (no such thing), because we know your religion is pure evil and muslims are Infidelophobic. You want to reform it? Good luck-it won't happen, well-meaning muslims tried for centuries and failed as I said before.

Ok either you refuse to believe the truth about Mohammad marrying Ayesha when she was 6, raping her at 9 years old or you're just trying to pull the wool over people's eyes. This fact is indisputable and is contained in Islamic source texts and settled by scholars. It's also why the marriageable age in some Islamic countries is 9. Don't waste my time with this argument, it is an indisputable fact and you know it.

There are other "moderate" muslims like Zuhdi Jasser who make arguments similar to yours. Basically what they're saying is "trust us to reform Islam", thus taking away responsibility for our own self-defense (of non-muslims against Islam) and putting it in whose hands? That's right other muslims. No thanks, we'll deal with Islam ourselves-it threatens our lives, all you have to decide is if you're with us or against us.

You seem like you're on the fence Sai-if you want to reform Islam, go talk to your fellow muslims, build organizations and work to change it, instead of coming here telling us to drop our guard, then bashing our patriots like Pamela, Tommy Robinson and the EDL. It just seems quite insincere and devious of you to pull something like that while you pretend to have noble intentions.

[Demsci]

Sai, you are Muslima, that is not your race, but your choice. You talk about Islamophobia, I would like to counter with thinking about TRUST. Benefit of the doubt and thus trust was initially given by the vast majority of citizens to Muslims. But now so much information is made available about the anti-democratic elements and behavior of Islam and Muslims by Pamela, Robert and many other anti-Islam-pro-democracy Islam-critics, with many former Muslims among them, have now shown this mountain of and mounting evidence.

But you think you have no reason to denounce Islam, you say. You hold that extremist misunderstand and misuse Islam. But you Muslims should by know THEN realise that still you cling to most important guiding texts that are too ambiguous, too prone to misunderstanding and misuse. Stubbornly, intransigent. Perhaps with the hope of eventually winning anyway, or perhaps hoping you will weather the storm. But what if the storm becomes a tsunami. Please feel the pressure and react responsibly, taking accountability that you Muslims are humans, capable of adapting, changing.

It is the responsibility of moderate Muslims to re-interpret the most important guiding texts. As we know Muslims are not allowed to change one iota of them, which is what really should happen.

Failing to reform, to re-interpret Islam's holy texts, is the failure of moderate Muslims. There is now no way citizens can distinquish between friendly and hostile Muslims. But still you moderate Muslims demand trust from citizens. But you do not dis-associate from enemies of these citizens. You remain in an organisation/ group that puts no democratic conditions on membership. You are simply guilty by association and loyalties that you refuse to give up, you yourself forfeit any trust of citizens.

But you have that choice, you can start a democratic Muslim group. That puts democratic conditions on membership. That refuses (continued) membership to those who reject them.

Take what you said about you opposing death-penalty for Islam-apostasy. Well, start the anti-death-penalty-group, make it conditional for membership to swear under oath that this penalty is abrogated and that association and loyalty to those who still uphold it, is replaced with loyalty to a democratic nation, it's laws and human rights and such.

You Muslims not doing this means you do not try to earn and you do not deserve one bit of trust of fellow citizens any more. And you may well be losing it steadily ever more by your own negligence, intransigence, stubbornness.

Perhaps you have the hope of eventually winning anyway, or perhaps you hope you will weather the storm. But what if the storm becomes a tsunami? Please feel the pressure and react responsibly, taking accountability that you Muslims are sane adult humans, capable of adapting, changing.

[Islam is a fascist totalitarian death cult and mafia criminal organization]

Muslims are harassing her in the own streets and you're calling her a paranoid schizophrenic?

Ok you just proved yourself to be a real idiot and a fake, screw off Sai, take your crap elsewhere.

[Islam is a fascist totalitarian death cult and mafia criminal organization]

*her own streets

[Kufar Dawg]

NO the ideology of YOUR FAITH is the problem. The rabid antisemitism (which is genocidal in the hadiths), anti-Christian bigotry and commandments to slaughter/enslave/persecute unbelievers are
YOUR problem because YOU CHOSE to be a muzzie and CONTINUE to do so.

[Islam is a fascist totalitarian death cult and mafia criminal organization]

Sai is a fake and a subversive, probably some 25 year old unemployed jihadi living off the UK welfare system and pretending to be moderate muslim. But when you read his posts the truth comes up.

I'm sure he'll be back under another fake account to ply his trade, but I'd recommend that people not waste their time on this clown.

[Kufar Dawg]

But Muhammad, PBUH, encouraged Muslims to lie to unbelieving kuffars -- as well as enslave and
murder them. Your practice of Al Taqiyya needs a lot more work sweetheart.

[Kufar Dawg]

Just like there is no "moderate" Nazi, there is no "moderate" Muslim and the proof for this statement is all over the world, anywhere Muslims live. Of course, your practice of Al Taqiyya
is much more polished than most Islamofascists.

[Islam is a fascist totalitarian death cult and mafia criminal organization]

*out

[Kufar Dawg]

Then move back to whatever islamofascist state suits you and live w/your fellow barbarians. We
don't want you here. My country has existed for hundreds of years without Muslims, we don't need
YOU.

[Kufar Dawg]

The Prime Minister of Turkey stated there is no moderate Islam, there is just Islam.

Your Al Taqiyya lies need a lot more work.

Which religious group still practices legalized slavery of kuffars in the 21st century? Islam,
in Mauritania and the Sudan, yet no Muslim anywhere has ever taken action to stop it.

[MamaGrizzly]

Having much experience ferreting out false "moderate" Muslims, and experience with Muslims directly, I am 100% certain sai is NOT a phony. The number of moderates within the Islamic countries is majority, but it only takes a fierce gangster minority to oppress them. Wake up. The modern Muslims are nothing like the fundamentalists. We would do well to band with them against the jihadiis.

[MamaGrizzly]

"Sai is a fake and a subversive, probably some 25 year old unemployed jihadi living off the UK welfare system and pretending to be moderate muslim. But when you read his posts the truth comes up."

What crap. I am also ex-lib on Rantburg, and there isn't a Islamic troll I have not outed. Sai is legitimate. STFU all you trailer trash white idiots. The world is a big place. Your attitudes only serve to strengthen the extremists. Reason the moderates can't control the extremists is the same reason we can't control the gangs in LA and NYC. Duh . . . . We have freedom of speech here, which is why we can complain and reform. Tell that to those who are threatened or who have their kids threatened because they speak out. And that's even here in the US. No chance in the world in their home countries without military organization and back-up. Duh . . .

Yes, the moderates ignore the disgusting problems in the texts, because for them being Moslem is for them just cultural--a loose identity they have. They don't ascribe to the whole bag, the whole ideology/religion. They redefine it according to their own ideas.

My apologies from all of us clear thinkers to you, sai. We understand our fight is not with you. We wish you could make a stand against "Islam" but have also seen what happens when normal people stand against the totalitarian regimes, as in Iran.

To the posters here who don't get it: talk is cheap. Try building some bridges with the ones who don't agree with the extremists. Duh . . .

[Michael M]

I like most of what you are saying but am going to have to make a request of you. Please stop referring to any of us non-Muslims as kuffar (or kaffir, or any other variant). I and most others here know the definition of the word. It is undoubtedly a perjorative. Thanks in advance for your consideration.

[Michael M]

"STFU all you trailer trash white idiots."
Nice! Your racism & hate is showing. And why should we build any birdges? To give the jihadis another target? The only bridge building that needs to be done is by Islam and it's followers.

[Islam is a fascist totalitarian death cult and mafia criminal organization]

lol hi Sai.

[Islam is a fascist totalitarian death cult and mafia criminal organization]

Aw, Sai is mad that his cover is blown.

[Islam is a fascist totalitarian death cult and mafia criminal organization]

While the Bible doesn't explicitly command genocide, it does condone it. Your Jewish desert god murdered a lot of people repeatedly, think of the great flood, first born of Egypt and the enemies of the Jews:

Genocide

Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving out from before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. Take heed to yourself, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are going, lest it be a snare in your midst. But you shall destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images (For you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.)

Exodus, Chapter 34, verses 11-14

You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you. Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight; your enemies shall fall by the sword before you. For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply you and confirm My covenant with you. You shall eat the old harvest, and clear out the old because of the new.

Leviticus, Chapter 26, verses 7-9

Slavery-go here, tons of quotes that condone it.

And honor-killing I covered in a post below.

LOL @ you justifying stoning and slavery, so how does that make you any better than muslims who do that?

You ever stop and think that if the Bible sent by a perfect God has so much evil in it, then maybe it is either man-made (and god does not exist-my take), or your God who condones and encourages such things might himself be evil?

He's also evil because he created everything and sits back will people starve and die, wars occur and millions of innocents are marched into gas chambers and furnaces, serial-killers kidnap rape children while your all-knowing, all-loving god sits by and eats his popcorn while enjoying the show?

[Islam is a fascist totalitarian death cult and mafia criminal organization]

One point I forgot to add, since we all acknowledge that stoning, slavery, genocide are wrong then there is no justification to allow it to occur at any time in history. Since your god instructed his followers to stone women/gays and condoned slavery/genocide, then he is evil. Or if it is wrong now but it was ok in the past, then he is imperfect (makes mistakes) therefore he is not god.

The key difference is that Christianity went through a Reformation and because it does teach 'brotherly love' and be good to one another, etc. this is why it is not a threat to us/humanity that Islam is, otherwise I'm sure we'd be talking about Christianity in the same way as we do Islam.

Now I'm not saying this just to ruffle feathers but (as an ex-Christian myself) it's to help Christians understand that their religion is just as flawed as Islam is and the truth is more important than blindly following dogma-this is why muslims are in so much trouble today. All these ideologies are backwards, barbaric and belong in a more primitive age, not the 21st century.

[much more than curious..]

O/T, but may i ask a few personal questions:
how is it one gets the fools and the willfully ignorant to "wake up and wise up"?

i no longer with the same gusto sing the phrase "land of the Free and the Home of the Brave"
the 3 or 4 generations of indoctrination of the public school subjects/experiments (and ultimately, useful idiots for communism/shari'a) and the efforts of the self-absorbed, amateur-psychologist, progressive john dewey who imported untold numbers of european socialist professors (to 'teach' at many colleges and universities) into this country has obviously caused an ENORMOUS (and possibly irreversible) amount of DAMAGE. and what with just a handful of DEEPLY GENUINE compatriots and lovers of true freedom and liberty that DO FAR MORE THAN should ever be asked and help us learn and understand, appreciate, and try to recover the greatness of our Constitution and its rights and amendments, JUST HOW do we get through to the masses?

What is it that you could tell/show us that will get the average person to engage in understanding and fighting for their history and their country? Showing the the BnW video of Reagan declaring "you're only ONE generation away from losing your freedoms and liberties!"?

I hear the strain and the tiredness in the voices of the FIRST generation of NEW FIGHTERS FOR FREEDOM from the Continuous Communist Creep (and great opposition to the shari'a), but WITH NO RESPECT to or for engels, "what is to be done?"

simply harassing the occasional passerby? I believe most of us are capable of dismissing the hysterical rantings of the woefully misguided in support of DESTROYING America's house with its own laws?

But again, have you learned ANY tricks to slow down the momentum and even force it's redirection? Just what is it that works?!?!

[MamaGrizzly]

I said "STFU" you trailer trash white idiots", because THAT'S HOW YOU SOUND--especially to the uninformed. Here is how you are presenting yourself: Unintelligent. Uneducated. Racist. Narrow. Black-and-white non-thinkers. Why don't you take some lessons from Geert Wilders, one of the greatest apologists for freedom and the dangers of Islamic encroachment on the planet, at present. For crying out loud.

On the original topic: I have to imagine no one here has ever actually even known any modern moderate Moslems. Trust me--they love fashion, parties, reading, poetry, fast cars, fun, music, family, movies, good food. None of this jihadi nonsense. They don't even attend mosque. Those that do, only occasionally, nominally.

And BTW, doesn't it occur to posters here that covert jihadists will come to this site, pretending to be Americans, and just bash the daylights out of anyone who breathes a hint of anything less than "kill all Moslems!" They do this to discredit the entire debate. They do this to discredit any criticism of their agenda. DUH. That's one way they win. You two are way too easily played by the left and by the extremists who attempt to brand anyone who refutes the falsely publicized tenets of "peaceful" Islam, which the jihadists (think Rauf, Khan) as brainless anti-intellectuals. I don't have time to do a full analysis, but I will try to check in from time to time, Michael and Islam . . . to verify your true position and identities, for the sake of the other posters and readers on this site.

We can win the American PC numb people here WITH the help of the modern Moslems who refute and challenge the Islamic extremists openly. Why do you think Obama did NOTHING to help the Iranian freedom movement? Obviously, the Iranians can most easily disempower the Al Queda brand of Islam, were they to get into power, replacing the Ahmadenijad power structure.

So . . . let's make this easier for you to understand. There are the fakers (Rauf/Khan types) who say "all is wunerful, wunerful, wunerful" with Islam--kind of like "nothing to see here . . . just move along and let us build mosques at Ground Zero and anywhere else we want", and then there are the typical, nominal, modern Moslems who hate these extremists as much as we do. If you doubt me, watch the video. She hates those guys, but she also fears them because she knows the harm they can cause to her and her family.

"The only bridge building that needs to be done is by Islam and it's followers."

Hmmm. Well, first of all, Michael, "Islam" can't build bridges because it's a politicized religion. It's not an animate human being. DUH. Next, the followers of "Islam" are so diverse that "it's followers" almost becomes a non-term. I would say the modern moderate Moslems would like to build bridges, and try to (like here via sai), but they don't stand much of a chance, now do they? Who do you think Pam is defending regarding the honor killings? These are modern Moslem girls who don't want to associate with jihadist Islam. They are our friends.

Another point. You are infantile and definitely NOT a professional if you think I'm an operative. It's laughable, really. Your analysis is completely non-existent on any marker. So you get another DUH from me, Michael M and Islam is a fascist totalitarian death cult and mafia criminal organization.

On a positive note: yes, it gets really dicey because the opposition is co-opting the "moderate" Islam stance falsely, in order to sell it to gullible Americans, then move into positions of power and government, which always has been their plan, and which they have been working on for 30+ years. Sadly, they are succeeding.

Still, keep your arguments and analyses above board and reasoned. We will be able to educate a lot more people that way. Okay?

[Demsci]

Quite possibly you are right, man/ woman with the long name. But on Sai I can practice, because he/ she uses the same arguments I hear all the time when there are conversations about Islam and Democracy in the media and around me. And whenever possible I like to participate in practice. And doing my homework and thinking about arguments the opposition gives and the naive, ignorant citizens believe, it is gratifying to experience, as many of us so often do, that Muslims and Muslim-defenders are running out of winning arguments against us.

So, although we never convert the Sai's of this world, we practice on them and experience much satisfaction in answering them. And secretly we hope third parties read and learn.

[Amillennialist]

You're not honest, Islam.

First, you blame God for wiping out violent humanity, then you whine, "Why doesn't God do something about evil?" You can't have it both ways.

Why do you blame God for human evil? Are you trying to justify your own sin?

Why do you need to defame God? You admit that there is no command to genocide, but you make up one anyway with "it does condone it."

Nowhere will you find commands to enslave unbelievers; as I pointed out, the regulations involving slavery were given to ameliorate its effects.

As for "justifying stoning," were the commands regarding it in the context of capital punishment under the Mosaic Law for the people of Israel only, or not? How else were the Hebrews to punish evil? Candy canes and lollipops? Harshly-worded notes?

The essential difference between Judaism (which is really what you're attacking here) and Islam is this: the God you libel has a right to punish sin (which you were complaining He doesn't do). That's the same God Who gave humanity the Ten Commandments, the Golden Rule, and His own Son as the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (God punished all evil in His body on the cross, which is a mercy, because if God were to destroy all sinners as you wish, there'd be no one left). And what did His Son do?

Christ committed no sin, spoke only the truth, healed the sick, raised the dead, died for the sins of the whole world, and resurrected and commanded His people to love even their enemies. What about Muhammad?

In Islam, you've got a genocidal pedophile "sacralizing" the violation of all Ten Commandments, the Golden Rule, and non-Muslims and their wives and children and claiming that "Allah made me do it, and you will too, or else!"

Your reference to reformation also highlights the difference: When Christianity reformed, it was to its foundational Scriptures. To where does that lead but "Love your neighbor as yourself." When Islam reforms, it points to "kill the pagans wherever you find them."

The distinction is clear.

[Michael M]

Um yeah, my comment was a play on words... just a lil jokey joke. Otherwise I haven't really made any other comments here, except one asking Wana to stop referring to non muslims as kuffars or kaffirs. As far as coming off as violent haters, I hav to say you are doing a pretty good job of trhat yourself. And my are you a bit touchy.

[Amillennialist]

More of Islam is a fascist's own personal jihad against the truth.

Those aren't honor killings; those are specific crimes forbidden by the Mosaic Law.

[Demsci]

MamaGrizzly, I am from Holland and I voted for Geert Wilders and I have taken many lessons from him.

I put it to you that there now exists Zuhdi Jasser, from Arizona. He is in favor of separation of Mosque and State and of an altogether different Interpretation of the Quran and only a limited part of the Hadith.

He might initiate and get off the ground a Democratic Islam, or New Islam. Countless analysts, in and outside of Islam, argue that "Old Islam" cannot be reformed and that is hopelessly anti-Democratic. So Democratic Islam should indeed be considered a New religion, not the reformed Old Islam.

This "New Islam" many AIPD (AntiIslamProDemocracy)-people could and would applaud, support, admire, even above appreciation of the average citizen. But on membership of it must be put democratic conditions like being against the deathpenalty for Islam-apostasy and against allying with clear supporters of that and enemies of democratic nations and laws etc.

But the moderate "Old Islam"-default-Muslims, and also their moderates, should realize that now they are really indistinquishable from anti-Democratic enemy-Muslims. And moderate or not, they hold on to ambiguous Islamic texts that are too prone to misunderstanding and misuse by enemy-Muslims. And they fail to re-interpret, re-select these ambiguous texts and put conditions on membership of the organisation they de facto declare themselves to be in. But they must be considered to be capable to do that. But they don't.

Because Islam, default-Islam or New Islam, at the end of the day is a matter of choice, not race, the moderate Muslims are guilty by association and loyalties. Which they could transfer to Democratic nations and laws and maybe in future to New Islam, which they fail or outright refuse to do.

And then regarding moderate Muslims by citizens becomes a matter of trust. While moderate Muslims fail or refuse to make decisive choices, they still demand TRUST in them from the other citizens. But trust must be earned and deserved, not demanded. Citizens have a right to withhold trust and fear those who fail to transfer highest associations and loyalties from anti-democratic laws and organisations to democratic ones. When they are able to do so and then fail or refuse to do so.

Pressure should be put on Moderate Muslims to finally change sides irrevocably and be open to be held accountable for their associations and loyalties.

[I'm Richard and I think Islam is a fascist totalitarian death cult and mafia criminal organization]

You're right (and well said in your earlier post), it is good practice to make better arguments.

[MamaGrizzly]

Demsci,

A similar movement is under way in Indonesia. Of course the hardliners want to squelch it pronto. We shall see how it plays out. If a CLEAR organization can be put forth in the Netherlands and it can grow, them the Moslems who are democratically minded can rally. If it remains obscure, most Moslems will feel outnumbered and threatened, and they would be right. My point is that there is are many nominal Moslems who aren't religious enough to be involved to the degree that it would take to turn the tide, but they are not our enemies and we need to differentiate. Right now in the USA we see the left going out of their way to mischaracterize anyone who opposes Islamic encroachment on any grounds whatsoever, and opponents if Islamization are portrayed as bigots, intolerant, white spremists, etc., which works to the advantage of enemy Moslems. Ergo the need for us to maintain correct analyses, especially on the public forum. Thank you for your informative discourse.

[MamaGrizzly]

Sorry--misread. Arizona. Well, that's good, but better if in Europe first. Even better, several pro-democracy "cells" around the world. We can dream, right?it all depends on who will run the show. With the hardliners in power, the peaceful reformists don't stand much of a chance--at first. If the can stay steady, many Moslems would join the democratic Moslems. Again, time will tell. G-d help all the freedom lovers on both sides.

[I'm Richard and I think Islam is a fascist totalitarian death cult and mafia criminal organization]

I always get a little chuckle when people talk about 'god' as if it's a real person and not something primitive humans conjured in a pre-scientific age when they didn't understand our universe. One day, when you do enough research, you'll realize your god is as real as Poseidon or Thor.

Your Jewish god killed good and bad people alike because he was a jealous genocider, the flood didn't just drown 'evil' people. And what is considered 'evil' or a sin? Having sex out of wedlock, worshiping other gods/idols and not yours, disobeying your parents and of course the standard transgressions that just about every culture has like killing, lying, stealing, cheating.

Apart from killing, are the rest such 'bad' things that people deserve to be stoned or genocided? No, that's why we invented the prison system. What was once considered evil (like homosexuality) is nowadays considered normal and acceptable. Your "sin" concept is just made up nonsense but for people who don't like to think for themselves and just follow rules invented by ancient savages. It's a godsend for them (pardon the pun), since they're sheep who want to be enslaved and lead around by the nose.

When I said why does god let evil happen, that didn't mean I want him to genocide everyone like he used to. Why not let the cops find out where the serial killers are? Why not send plagues to kill the Nazis (just the bad folk instead of everyone)? Why let millions of innocent children starve to death in Africa while allowing us to live with abundance?

Since God created everything (like Satan, demons, etc) then he also created evil. God is also evil since by his own standards of perfection, he gets jealous, has regrets for his decisions, allows evil people to enslave, torture and kill the good because he probably enjoys it.

Nowhere did I say the Bible said to "enslave unbelievers", you're making up straw man arguments. I said it condones slavery:

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"If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom."(Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again." (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
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Even your pal Jesus approves of slavery:

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"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ." (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

"The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)
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You talk about 'ameliorating the effects of slavery' but you carefully avoided admitting that I was right-the Bible does not condemn it, but rather considers it quite normal to keep slaves. Yet we know slavery is evil, that's why we abolished it. So was your god wrong for approving of slavery in his divine text? Is he not sinning? Is he not god because he got something wrong?

That's a weird way of justifying stoning, "uh what else could they do under Mosaic Law?" And by that statement you prove my point-what makes you any better than muslims who stone women for similar reasons set out in the Bible? It makes you people hypocrites and also savages because stoning is one of the most painful and brutal ways to kill someone and thanks for proving me right in my original post about you religion.

I'm addressing Christianity, not Judaism though it shares the same roots. Your god hasn't even been proven to exist, yet you're more than happy to subject yourself to 'his' wild whims. First slavery/genocide/stoning were ok, now they're a 'sin', all of it is made up and arbitrary. I'm trying to get you to see that it is primitive, mythological nonsense, like Islam and all the other religions that have ever existed.

Jesus' life had no significance whatsoever. Think of how absurd it is, there is some magic grand-daddy in the sky who wants to you slaughter animals and burn their corpses as propitiation for your misdeeds because the smell of searing lamb carcass makes him giddy with delight. (Jesus was probably never real or it was some story inspired by one of the many crazy men standing on street corners telling everyone the world is about to end.)

But one day he thought, instead of animal sacrifices, I'm going to do something really amazing-end world hunger? No, peace on earth? No, I'm going to go down to the planet in human form, get tortured to death and sacrifice myself to myself to make up for all the 'sins' of mankind. Here's another version of that tale. So his message was, be good little sheep, obey your masters-slaves, blindly follow my death cult, love and forgive people who want to slaughter you and your family and spread this mind-virus/meme.

See a fundamental mistake that religions make is to assume that 'sin' is something to be avoided at all costs. But it is our mistakes (sins) that make us better people. We shouldn't be trying to absolve ourselves of responsibility, we should take ownership of our actions to make ourselves and the world a better place.

The problem with Christianity (and religions in general) is that they corrode ones senses and make you have no care about this world since you're eagerly looking for the next 'paradise' to come. None of the concepts you hold make any contact with reality: god, heaven, hell, sin, demons-all are in the realm of imagination.

The ten commandments, golden rule, etc. didn't introduce anything new or different that already exists in human societies long before Christianity was invented at the Council of Nicea.

So long as you continue to buy into these evil, outdated mythologies, you will never be truly free. And we can see how much needless suffering they cause by looking at the Islamic world today. Of course we both agree that Christianity is much better than Islam but it is still all a lie and this is why it too much be rejected.

[MamaGrizzly]

Geert Wilders: "It is time to wake up. We need to confront reality and we need to speak the truth. The truth is that Islam is evil, and the reality is that Islam is a threat to us.

Before I continue I want to make clear, however, that I do not have a problem with Muslims as such. There are many moderate Muslims. That is why I always make a clear distinction between the people and the ideology, between Muslims and Islam. There are many moderate Muslims, but there is no such thing as a moderate Islam."

What HE said . . .

[Daryl M]

I don't know whether to call her brave or foolhardy, but Pakistan does not deserve her. She put that arrogant b*st*rd in his place and he will not let it go. I'll bet she is a marked woman. She should get the h*ll out of there while she still can.

[MamaGrizzly]

Agree. And she needs to get her entire extended family out too, before the retribution starts . . .

[Amillennialist]

Saturday, March 26, 2011

Only the deranged, the perverse, and Muslims can ask, "what makes you any better than muslims who stone women for similar reasons set out in the Bible?"

Could it be that . . . I'm not stoning anyone?

This is not about "being better than" anyone; we are all sinners deserving of God's wrath and dependent solely on His mercy in Christ. This is about telling the truth, by which souls are saved from hell and non-Muslims are saved from hell-on-Earth.

In reply to someone throwing Muhammad's hellish bathwater on the Baby:

Hi, I'm Richard and I think Islam . . . ,

Essentially, you're mad because you're not God. You don't like his definition of "sin" (thanks for admitting that). Fine. Create a universe, and then you can make up your own rules. Until then, can't you at least deal honestly with the Biblical texts? Do you misrepresent the Bible and its God out of ignorance only, or is it just pure cosmos envy?

(Let's see, you hate, defame, and blaspheme the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and His Christ, attribute sinful human qualities to God (God's "jealousy" is His desire for all to live, not a misogynist's possessiveness), make yourself your own god, and blame God for human evil. Are you sure you're not Muslim?)

If you really were concerned about the Problem of Pain and not just sniping, I'd point out that whatever evils and injustices you want to attribute to God, He endured the greatest evil and injustice of all, willingly sacrificing His own Son (Who willingly made the sacrifice) to pay for the sins of all. God reconciled men to Himself in Christ's body on the cross. The greater mystery is not why God allows suffering, but why He would suffer and die for a sinful humanity which rages against Him.

As for your "arguments" . . .

http://amillennialist.blogspot.com/2011/03/only-deranged-perverse-and-muslims-can.html

[Istanbul_Chick]

Yes, she's very beautiful and very brave but she's a typical clueless muhammadan.

I cannot watch this video beyond the point where she screams that muhammad would tell the fat imam he was wrong!

Sorry, darling, but it was muhamamad who "suggested" the hijab after one of his henchman tried to rape muhammad's daughter (Zaynab, I believe) because he was turned on by her hair.

So, muhammad punished the woman (his OWN DAUGHTER!) for the man's sin. He would be back-clapping this fat imam you're arguing with and telling you to cover up your shameful, but nice, hooters you shameless fahisha!