MUMBAI: ISLAM'S ATTACK ON DEMOCRACY: CHECK THE WEAPONS

UPDATE: THere is some dispute over what weapons were used so I will update as more breaks. But one thing is for sure: India has proof of ISI involvement in Mumbai

More on the weapons (see below)

This was no accident. We are not talking about the media's fictional caricature of the  cave dwelling, Neanderthal barbarian blood lust. This was a calculated, bloody, act of war. An Islamic country attacking the largest democracy in the world. Think about that.

NO THIRD WORLD GUNS Anatreptic hat tip Norman

Original source of article and picture here.

This picture, taken in the aftermath of the Mumbai terror attacks, is disturbing on a number of levels.

These aren't AK-47s, the cheap and ubiquitous automatic weapons favored in the third world because, while crude, will shoot under almost any circumstance. No, these are Heckler & Koch MP5s, the standard submachine gun of security services throughout the world, including our own special forces in all branches of the military.

This isn't a black market gun. While people living in caves in Afghanistan can and do manufacture Kalashnikovs by hand, the MP5 is a sophisticated weapon requiring high tech metallurgy and other technologies for their production.

Pakistan Ordinance Factories manufactures these weapons under license from HK, and they are under the control of the Pakistani Ministry of Defense.

Its hard to escape the implications.

Report: Technology Gave Mumbai Terrorists Tactical Edge FOX New hat tip van

They carried handheld GPS navigators, satellite phones, BlackBerrys and data CDs containing detailed maps and Google Earth images of where they were going.

Their opponents, on the other hand, had outmoded technology and little understanding of the situations they were getting into.

"The [Mumbai] terrorists would not have been able to carry out these attacks had it not been for technology," G. Parthasarathy, an internal security expert at the Center for Policy Research in New Delhi, India, told the Washington Post in an article published Wednesday. "They were not sailors, but they were able to use sophisticated GPS navigation tools and detailed maps to sail from Karachi [in Pakistan] to Mumbai."

Speaking of eeeeeeeeeeevil Google. They make sensitive intel  available to destroyers and killers but won't work the the US government - respecting the privacy of Islamic killers.

Out of control.

The terrorists that attacked various locations in south Mumbai last week used digital maps from Google Earth to learn their way around, according to officials investigating the attacks.Investigations by the Mumbai police, including the interrogation of one nabbed terrorist, suggest that the terrorists were highly trained and used technologies such as satellite phones, and global positioning systems (GPS), according to police.

Google Earth has previously come in for criticism in India, including from the country's former President, A.P.J. Abdul Kalam.
Kalam warned in a 2005 lecture that the easy availability online of detailed maps of countries from services such as Google Earth could be misused by terrorists.
A Google spokeswoman said in an e-mail Monday that Google Earth's imagery is already available through commercial and public sources. Google Earth has also been used by aid agencies for relief operations, which outweighs abusive uses, she said.

UPDATE: More on the weapons from reader Paul:

I need to disagree with the story on the terrorist choice of weapons in the recent Mumbai attacks.

The pictures that I’ve seen clearly show the use of AK-47 style weapons. Also caches of AK-47 magazines were found. MP-5’s fire 9mm pistol ammunition. 7.62x39mm shell casings, AK-47 ammunition, is what was found everywhere, not 9mm shell casings.

This is very likely a KGB-FSB effort to cause a war between Pakistan and India to destabilize that area as a cover for further Russian expansion.

Note the terrorist in the attached image is NOT carrying an MP-5. It’s a long barreled AK-47, probably Russian issue.

  The reason this is significant is that the Russian and former Soviet bloc nations, through the KGB (now FSB) were funding and equipping Islamic nations for the purpose of destabilizing nations and causing war as early as the 60’s. This is especially true of Lebanon and Syria and its efforts to foment hatred of Israel.

The KGB, now the FSB, has been very active in training, arming, and equipping Islamic terrorists for the purposes of furthering their Communist efforts and their efforts to implement the socialist one world order. Yes, Islamo-facism is a very real danger, but they are being pushed behind the scenes by the KGB, who is the puppet master.

In one year alone, the KGB facilitated delivery of 1000 TONS (as in 2,000,000 pounds) of Semtex H (odorless explosive undetectable by sniffer dogs) delivered to Hamas. Ever wonder where they keep finding all these explosive to make homicide bomber vests and bomb roadside bombs with? It was estimated to be a 150 year supply!

Read the articles for yourself:

The real terror paymasters: the KGB has long sponsored the Muslim fundamentalist groups that have now become a global terror network carrying out the Marxist-Leninist revolution in Muhammad's name

Russian Footprints: what did Russia have to do with the war in Lebanon

Behind Islamic terror: Syria and Iran are scorned in much of the Western world for supporting terrorism, but neither one is the puppeteer directing the worldwide terror network—Russia is Roots of Islamic terrorism: How communists help fundamentalists

Google keywords: KGB FSB islamic terror

They are still actively doing this today

Comments

[HenryB]

These are simply machine pistols (9mm). The terrorists would have been a helluva lot better off with AK47's. I read that at least one Indian cop wearing body armor was slain by the terrorists. These 9mm popguns won't go through body armor.

I'm skeptical that the terrorists used these firearms. The photo of the baby-faced terrorist looks more like he was carrying an AK-74 (carbine version of the AK-47, and built much better), though it's difficult to tell.

[TINBH]

There were a number of reports from various sources in the Indian media during the islamic-terrorist siege of Mumbai stating that each terrorist-muslim was carrying a machine pistol (MP5 or MP6) as well as a larger caliber cut-down version of the AK; the reports were of the AK65 (a.k.a. PM md.65).

The larger caliber would more likely penetrate some types of body armor (plus there are methods of penetrating armor that don't need to be discussed here - but known to most who deal in that "business"). It is also more likely one to use for further distance work - e.g. when the terrorists were shooting out of the hotels into crowds ...

More significant is that the AK65 (PM md 65) is a weapon of choice used by terrorists in Iraq, "fakestine", Libya, Jordan, IRA,...

The MP5 (or MP6) would be used for the very ugly business of close-range fighting - or in the case of arabic-religionists - point-blank mass murdering.

And main point as A.S. points out - connection to Pakistani government is made via possession and use of the MP5(6).

[Thomas Carney]

The baby face with the crazy eyes was definitely not carrying an MP5. I've seen three different photos of this guy. The photos stunk, but the gun he was holding was too long to be an MP.

Has anyone got any pics of the other losers that did this?? I'd like to see a few more.

[exAAstew]

This is an unfortunate incident...but it also seems very ODD to me....check it out Pam. Just wondering if there was foul play.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2008/12/03/MNVE14GCD6.DTL

[ron oglesby]

Atlas, love the blog, but this one is BS (as I have pointed out at the source). These weapons (at first glance) are too uniform. Same weapon, magazine setup and sling configuration... Then i did some digging and found this image:
http://krishashok.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/commando.jpg

with a bunch of Indian commandos sitting around....

Sorry, these are not weapons collected from the terrorists.

[Sebaneau]

http://www.spectator.co.uk/the-magazine/features/3061986/the-global-force-behind-mumbais-agony-is-in-our-midst.thtml
The global force behind Mumbai's agony is in our midst
By Stephen Schwartz and Irfan Al-Alawi, The Spectator [London], 3 December 2008

The usual suspects are declaring that the 'cause' of the Mumbai bombings was Kashmir or some other local grievance. But what happened in Mumbai was no more a local event than the 7 July 2005 attacks in London or the assault in Madrid on 11 March 2004. Pakistani propaganda about its claims in Kashmir is almost entirely phony rhetoric intended to justify the predatory instincts of the Pakistani army and intelligence bureaucrats. Pakistan insists that Kashmiri Muslims are oppressed by India, but in fact Indian Muslims live better than Pakistani Muslims and have demonstrated a better capacity for true Islamic thinking.

The attacks on Mumbai are part of a global problem, which is why a passive Western policy toward the crisis is not acceptable. It may appear comforting to bien-pensant representatives of the 'progressive' elite. But in reality it represents an attitude of suicidal and irresponsible disengagement from confrontation with a continuing threat. In Mumbai, as in London, Madrid and New York, but also in the Islamic cities of Iraq, Istanbul and Jakarta, and in places like Peshawar and Quetta in Pakistan, a wide network of Muslim fundamentalists continue their global offensive.

The common enemies of all civilised humanity in the ongoing conflict include Saudi Wahhabism and Pakistani jihadism, the latter inspired by a fundamentalist variant of Islam called Deobandism. What Western appeasers must remember is that Pakistan, like Saudi Arabia before it, is two-faced, professing to oppose terrorism while powerful factions in its leadership espouse it.

There is a wide gap between the ordinary local people in Pakistan and India — whatever their faith — and Islamist radicals in the Pakistani armed forces a nd clandestine services. This division cannot be spanned by a few ameliorative gestures by Pakistani, American or British leaders. We owe it to these ordinary people to treat Islamism seriously wherever it occurs.

This war is mainly aimed at gaining the loyalties of the world's Sunni Muslims. Saudi Wahhabis now favour a crisis in Pakistan. King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia has begun a slow and at times almost imperceptible process of anti-Wahhabi actions, and so the main body of Islamist radicals (claiming the mantle of Sunnism) have shifted their attention to Pakistan and its pool of Deobandi foot soldiers. On the subcontinent, the extremists can corrupt, recruit and kill more people, with more impunity, than is now imaginable in the Middle East. Remember that the Wahhabis have failed in Iraq, and the Deobandis, who produced the Taleban, a re widely discredited in Afghanistan. Pakistan is now the most obvious choice as a new battleground. Action against India may be the pretext, but the reality is a radical, global strategy.

Saudi Arabia and Pakistan resemble the old Soviet Union and East Germany in their special relationship, but they are different from these states in one key respect: no communist regime ever had a diaspora of two million in Britain, as Pakistan does today. The point that should be impressed on the mind of every Briton is that the Pakistani jihadi militia and the al-Qa'eda collaborators known as Lashkar-e-Taiba (LET — Army of the Righteous) which attacked Mumbai have a significant following in Britain, Europe and the US.

Thanks to Pakistani government blandishments, LET is recruiting in British mosques as you read these words. This is not alarmist language; it is a pragmatic and direct statement of fact. LET was involved in the Heathrow plot of 2006. LET trained 27-year-old Rashid Rauf of Birmingham, planner of the multiple destruction of passenger aircraft, whom the US allegedly killed in November but who some say remains alive and who was, if nothing else, an inspirer of the Mumbai attacks.

LET is active in the US, where it ran an aggressive network headed by an American white man who converted to Islam, Randall Ismail Royer. Royer's cell was known by the alarmingly anodyne nickname of 'the Virginia paintball jihad', because its ten or so wannabe mujahideen engaged in that form of imitation war as practice for the real fighting they would face as LET troops in Kashmir. Royer, a former functionary of the leading legal Islamist group in America, the presumptuously titled Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), had been in Bosnia-Herzegovina and adopted the charming habit of ringing and harassing Bosnian and American Muslims who challenged Wahhabism. Then he was found driving around the American capital with a loaded AK-47 and 219 rounds of ammunition in his car.

Royer joined LET recruits from the US in Kashmir for what is best described as jihad tourism, taking up arms against the Indians. Royer also cleverly produced Islamist internet polemics intended to convey moderation and acceptance of Western values. He and his group were charged with 41 counts of conspiracy to levy war against India, an ally of the United States, as well as arms and related infractions. Royer and a LET comrade pleaded guilty to weapons violations in 2004 and received 20 years in an American prison. Royer's religious wisdom was succinctly summarised when he commented on his arrest,

'I really resent the idea that a Muslim with a gun — he's a threat. A Jew with a gun — he's not a threat.'

Perhaps a Muslim with a gun is not necessarily a threat; but an Islamist with a gun certainly is. We must not forget that, in taking the Islamist threat in Mumbai seriously , in admitting it to be a global problem we are protecting not just the West but ordinary Muslims too. We must not forget that many Muslims are also committed to civilised values and opposed to this perversion of their faith. The necessity of the struggle against Islamic extremism is the central fact of our time. To try to write recognition of the nature of Islamist violence out of comprehension of Mumbai and crimes like those committed there brings to mind Orwell's dictum that there are some notions that only the media and intellectuals are stupid enough to believe.

There are few places in the world today without Muslims, and of course wherever there are Muslim communities there is this possibility of radicalisation. But no situation is currently worse than that of Saudi-satellite Pakistan and its British diaspora.
So what should be done about it? The British authorities should resolutely quarantine, deport, otherwise expel, and in general combat LET and other Deobandi elements in the British Muslim population. This seems like a sensible and life-saving measure, but nothing remotely like such a policy exists.

Instead the Foreign Office mumbles about the difficulties of determining whether British subjects died as criminal assailants in Mumbai, the US tiptoes around the question of LET's historically undeniable financing and training by the Pakistani military, and Pakistani representatives whine that they should not be judged until some kind of official inquiry into Mumbai has taken place. But what state other than Pakistan — however failing — would evince an incentive to tolerate LET? Would Sri Lanka have encouraged a gang of murderers to invade a major Indian city? Nepal, which happens to be Maoist? Burma? Hardly. Pakistan's army is the moral author of the bloodshed in Mumbai; it recruits its cannon fodder in British cities like Birmingham and Bolton as much — or more than — in the slums of Lahore or Karachi, and it represents the main back-up for al-Qa'eda.

Ignoring the ideological and geographical dimension of the world struggle against Islamist violence denies the existential reality of the Mumbai events. The screams of the innocent in Mumbai are the immediately audible evidence of the meaning of the contest. To pretend that such deaths were caused by old complaints in Kashmir is to ignore the real threat and thus to endanger humanity.

So what must be done? Pakistan and India both have nuclear weapons, and the Pakistani ruling clique is excitable about threatening their use. Nonetheless London and Washington appear paralysed. In this situation, the reaction of London may be more relevant than that of Washington. President-elect Obama babbled about bombing the Pakistan-Afghanistan-Iran frontier at about the time his opponent, John McCain, was pilloried for celebrating a proposed bombing of Iran. But in the transition period the new inhabitant of the White House apparently prefers to bemoan the diminishing potential for a Begin-Sadat-style photo-op of the kind produced in 1978 by President Jimmy Carter. The thinking goes that getting Pakistan and India to hug one another, even while Pakistan continues to tolerate (if not deliberately assist) LET, will free the Pakistani military brass to make good on their repeated but empty promises to act against the Taleban.

It would be the worst of all mistakes to think that Pakistani complicity with the Taleban, and Islamabad's support for the Kashmiri killers and their Mumbai militants, can be separated into two issues and handled in isolation from one another. Many individuals, British subjects included, went to Afghanistan and joined al-Qa'eda but ended up in Kashmir in the ranks of LET. The fighting in Afghanistan in some major part exists as a platform for continuing assault on Kashmir. Ending terror in Afghanistan is indivisible from the same task in Kashmir and, indeed, elsewhere around the world.

Obama seems to be living in a cloud-cuckoo land. If Pakistan is to avoid failing as a state, it must desist from harassing its neighbour, accept responsibility for fostering terror groups, and reform its army and intelligence services from top to bottom, rooting out every sympathiser of violent fundamentalism.

But this is unlikely to happen. Pakistan increasingly resembles a bus with no brakes, hurtling towards a cliff, and driven by a man, Asif Ali Zardari, who appears to have been struck blind. The lesson of Mumbai may be that for Pakistan rescue will come too late.

Stephen Schwartz Is Executive Director And Irfan Al-Alawi Is International Director Of The Centre For Islamic Pluralism At www.islamicpluralism.eu.

[doc Russia]

Yeah, looking around I see no photos of the BGs toting H&Ks. They each had a kalashnikov.
Besides, why would you take a 9mm, when you could take a .30 cal? The MP5 is superior only in CQB work, where you have to turn sharp angles very quickly. They have the same ammo capacity, but the AK has better power, range, and reliability.
Sorry, but this report is bogus.

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