Lunch and more, Avigdor Lieberman

The unfaithful cannot be citizens. Avigdor Lieberman

Daniel Pipes hosted a Middle East Forum lunch earlier today in NYC with Israeli Minister of Foreign Affairs and Deputy Prime Minister Avignor Lieberman which I was most privileged to attend.  Founder of the Yisrael Beiteinu, holding 11 of the 120 seats in the Israeli Parliment, it is the 5th largest party in Israel. Second most popular  political figure (Bibi Netanyahu leads), he is right of center -- the opposite of the weak, appeaser Olmert. More curious than anything else was I of how Lieberman  could sanction the policies of the feckless  Olmert government by being a part of it? Photo right: Avignor and Atlas

I respect Lieberman. Canceling a planned appearance at the Public Relations Council in New York because Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had spoken there two months before was righteous indeed. I respect such action.

Lieberman's ministerial position deals primarily with the threat of Iran's developing nuclear program.  And he insists that this is why he joined Olmert 's government --  to address the greatest threat confronting Israel.

“Ahmadinejad is not a rational player,”  “Any attempt to pacify him is like before the second World War in Europe.”

Iran president: Israel will be wiped out

He began his remarks by saying that those who are not faithful to Israel cannot expect to have full rights. He would have  Israelis to sign a commitment to loyalty to the Israeli flag and to its national anthem, and of requiring service in the army or other national service. Citizens who wouldn't  sign the declaration could continue to live in Israel, working, studying, and getting health care benefits, but they could not vote in national elections or be elected to national office.

“It’s not racism. The test is loyalty, not their religion.”

He said he would also deny Israeli citizenship to extreme anti-Zionist Orthodox Jewish groups, specifically pointing to Neturei Karta, which sent representatives to this week’s Holocaust denial conference in Tehran. 

Lieberman presented his solution to Israeli-Palestinian conflict

"Israel has the right to demand full allegiance from all its citizens. He who is not ready to recognize Israel as a Jewish and Zionist state, cannot be a citizen in the country. Of course, this is TREASON This applies to extremists of the Neturei Karta [anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews -Atlas] as well as to extremist factions of the Islamic Movement."

(Photo:This is Achmaninejad greeting Neturei Karta rep at his evil  Holocaust denial conference of the 70 in Teheran the last two days. hat tip Mark G)

Israeli Arabs should be made to take a loyalty oath.

An oath of loyalty to the country, not a religion. We have the right to demand loyalty from all of our citizens......loyalty is the key to the problem

He railed against the  Israeli Arab MKs for meeting Syrian and Lebanese officials and expressing their support for Hizbullah .  

"It is unacceptable that a senator or a representative in the American house of representatives assist Afghanistan during the war and meet with Bin-Laden and al-Qaeda leaders, express his support for their war against the US and be allowed to return to serve in Congress," 

He has a vision for Israel. His plan for the peace process, referring to it as the "Oslo process",  is based on "three false basic assumptions, that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the cause of instability in the Middle East, that the conflict is territorial and not ideological, and that the establishment of a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders will end the conflict."

“The conflict includes not only the Arabs in Judea, Samaria, and the Gaza Strip, but Israeli Arabs also,” Mr. Lieberman said. “The linkage between the Palestinian Authority and the Israeli Arab population — it will destroy us, it is impossible. What is the logic of creating one and a half country for one people and a half country for the Jewish people.

To say that the conflict is based on territories is "nonsense." This is a "worldwide collusion" of civilization and Israel represents the the free world. Israel, 9/11, London, Madrid, Bali, ...... it is about values. Values based on  human rights, women's rights..........why did no one  in the Arab world speak out against the fatwa on Salman Rushdie?

"Phenomenon of the Minorities"

Lieberman contends that wherever there is conflict between two peoples E.G.  Quebec vs Canada, Catholics vs Protestants (Ireland), etc...the best solution is separation. Separation between two nations. The best example being Cyprus. There was terrible friction, blood between the Greeks and the Turks before they separated in '74 and moved to opposing parts of the island. There was no peace agreement .......but the separation lead to stability.

The main issue for Palestinians is economy.

The main issue for Israel is security.  "Without resolving this, we are destined to failed. Providing jobs is critical."

Now we take money from the poor people of rich countries and give to the rich people of poor countries.

He believes Israel should exchange territory for population. And does not believe that Abu Mazen is the right partner.

“I don’t think that Abu Mazen is the right partner. I think that he is the biggest obstacle,”. Lieberman said. “Abu Mazen, he is excellent for declaration, but when he must deliver the goods, he is incompetent.”

He correctly posits the Arab world exploits the conflicts within Israel and Israel should do the same

"Why don't we use the conflicts existing between the Palestinians?"

Our biggest problems are Jews, not Arabs [laughter from the table]

"Every light in the Muslim world has been killed extinguished [IE Sadat] time and time again."

Lieberman says Iran is not Israel's problem (but if no one does anything is is invariably Israel's problem IMAO.) The world is embarking on the biggest nuclear Arab arms race. (Photo:  Lieberman left, Pipes right)

Pacifying Iran will not work. Like Chamberlain.......everyone paid a terribly high price.  Israel has the terrible location of being on the front lines of the collision.

Here is the audio for his full remarks:
Download avignor.wav

Here is the question and answer:
Download avignorqa.wav

UPDATE:

CLICK HERE TONIGHT'S ATLAS  PODCAST: CAROLINE GLICK . We discuss Lieberman and all of it. All of it.

The NY Sun has more: Israel's Lieberman Calls for Tougher Stance on Israeli Arabs

Click below for the VLOG of Lieberman's remarks on Iran

UPDATE: Obviously, Lieberman is onto something;

Increasingly radical, Israeli Arabs want end to Zionist vision of state JTA        

JERUSALEM, Dec. 11 (JTA) — Increasingly alienated from the Jewish state in the wake of the recent Lebanon war, Israeli Arabs have produced a radical document demanding cultural autonomy and the right to veto government decisions that concern them. The document, titled “The Future Vision of Palestinian Arabs in Israel,” could prove to be a watershed.

Drafted by representative mainstream organizations and not by extremists, it constitutes an unqualified rejection of the Zionist model of Israel as a Jewish state in which Israeli Arabs are integrated as equal citizens with full rights.

[...]

Instead, the document proposes a model of Israel as “the state of all its citizens,” in which two ethnic groups, Jews and Arabs, both enjoy a degree of autonomy in a binational state. That would be next to a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip that would be entirely Arab.

The rift between the Jewish majority and Arab minority in Israel has been widening steadily for years. Pre-existing tensions between the two communities were exacerbated by the Oslo process, the lethal clashes between Israeli Arabs and police in October 2000 and, most recently, by the second Lebanon war.

A last-ditch attempt by moderates on both sides to draft a conciliatory Jewish-Arab covenant collapsed in 2001. The protocols of their meetings, released recently, show that the main sticking point was the Arab side’s refusal to recognize Israel as a Jewish state.

The new document takes this rejection further. It has eight chapters dealing with sensitive issues like land policy, economic development, education and the nature of the Israeli state. The drafters do not recognize Israel’s essential Jewishness, and see it instead as a “joint homeland” for Jews and Arabs. That paves the way for the Arab side to demand not only individual rights but rights as a group.

From this basic position, the drafters derive their insistence on cultural, religious and educational autonomy. It also underpins their demands for separate representation in international forums and a veto right on domestic issues that concern them as a group.

The significance is far reaching: Israel would forfeit its Jewish character. Indeed, the drafters of the document urge Israel to forego its Jewish symbols of state — for example, the flag with the Star of David and the“Hatikvah” anthem, which expresses the Jewish yearning through the ages for a return to Zion.

 

Comments

[hutchrun]

`He correctly posits the Arab world exploits the conflicts within Israel and Israel should do the same`

Agreed and Hugh has great ideas:

`And the "talks" with Iran? Something along the same friendly lines. Something like this: Fifty percent of your population is not Persian. There are Kurds. There are Azeris. There are Baluchis. There are Arabs in Khuzistan, where all your oil is located. We are prepared to arm, through Kurdistan, those Kurds. The mere existence of an independent and American-backed Kurdistan will inspire not only those Kurds, but also those Baluchis and those Arabs and, if we can make a deal with Azerbaijan, possibly even those Azeris as well. The Ottoman Empire dissolved after World War I. What remains of the Persian Empire -- that is, modern Iran -- can dissolve, or be shrunk still further. Could you put down simultaneous revolts among the Kurds, Baluchis, Azeris, and Arabs? You don't think we dare do it? Why not? What do we have to lose? What could you do now that is still worse than what you are already doing? Let's be clear: we are not out to overturn the regime, but we can inflict such damage on your country that others, within, will overturn your regime. And kill the Mullahs in their luxurious homes. Do you want that?..`
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/014341.php

[Azari Niran]

Heck, why stop there? Let's mobilize the American Fantasy Brigade to take over Tehran on their cloud horses!

America doesn't have the manpower or resources to handle Iran anymore, thanks to your Iraq War. You guys screwed up the whole ME, and now think you can keep on fighting it? With who? With what? Laughable.

[Jeremiah]

Su-f*cking-perb post.

Of course a loyalty oath and national service should be required. Frankly, I would welcome them here in the U.S. of A.

[Jeremiah]

Azari,

The US of A (+ a few other Western powers) did not "screw up the whole ME". Get over that victim b.s. Live in reality. Study our Declaration of Independence, our Constitution, our Federalist Papers -- and apply them where you live (that is, if you are not an American resident or citizen). And if you are an American resident or citizen, then someday -- real soon -- I wish to present you with a loyalty oath and requirement for a term of national service.

[Azari Niran]

This must be the famous right-wing American media at work here! So, Iraq is doing just great, then? No civil war? No Sunnis fighting Shias? No Iranian-backed Shiite militias, fighting with Sunnis about to be backed by Saudi Arabia? No resurgent Taliban? No emboldened Iran, thanks to America taking out its two biggest enemies and ruining its own military in the process?

You're right, you guys didn't mess anything up. Your war stabilized the whole region! And you've still got plenty of soldiers left to make me sign those loyalty oaths! Shakin' in my boots!

[tazzerman2000]

It NEVER ceases to amaze me just how fast these comments can get off topic. I think we've set a record here thanks to Azari..

Yep, the ME was SUCH a paradise before we went in and took out the Taliban, took out Saddam. It was heaven on earth I tell you and has been for centuries...

Man, I'd LOVE to have whatever it is your smoking.

Regarding the actual topic: Avigdor is a breath of fresh air in an otherwise smoke filled world.

He remains focused on the true enemy here (Iran) and understands that the Israeli/Pali conflict is SO much more than just a territorial dispute.

While he CERTAINLY has said some very imflamatory things in the past, some of which, no doubt caused any number of Jews to crinch and come unglued, at least you know where he stands. He's a stallworth defender of Israel and a true Zionist.

That no doubt scares the shit out a LOT of people....

[gmee]

It'll scare them more if he gets into a position of real influence and power.

Ragarding the other topic. Let's not confuse capability and willpower. If the US got into a hot war with Iran I think Iran would last about as long as Iraq did. It'd be no contest. (Which is, I think, one reason that Iran so desperately wants the bomb.) Whether the US has the WILL to deal with Iran in a military manner is an entirely different story.

And it is refreshing to see some people in Israel talking about something other than groveling or appeasement.

Greg

[Azari Niran]

Don't give me all the credit, tazzerman. I was just responding to hutch's hilarious comment.

Yep, the ME was SUCH a paradise before we went in and took out the Taliban, took out Saddam. It was heaven on earth I tell you and has been for centuries

I know, right? You wouldn't think the ME could get any worse than it was in 2001, but, by God, America did it. You guys rose to the challenge.

Let's not confuse capability and willpower.i>

Oh, I'm not. You guys don't even have the capability to attack Iran anymore. Where are the soldiers going to come from?

And then who will be around to force other Americans into taking the loyalty oaths?! You guys aren't thinking this through.

[Azari Niran]

Don't give me all the credit, tazzerman. I was just responding to hutch's hilarious comment.

Yep, the ME was SUCH a paradise before we went in and took out the Taliban, took out Saddam. It was heaven on earth I tell you and has been for centuries

I know, right? You wouldn't think the ME could get any worse than it was in 2001, but, by God, America did it. You guys rose to the challenge.

Let's not confuse capability and willpower.

Oh, I'm not. You guys don't even have the capability to attack Iran anymore. Where are the soldiers going to come from?

And then who will be around to force other Americans into taking the loyalty oaths?! You guys aren't thinking this through.

[Shy Guy]

The only thing Lieberman has accomplished in all his years as a Knesset member is looking out for Number One.

Here's a quote for you, Pamela. Click on the link at the end to reveal its author.

"Lieberman's public persona is in many ways an encapsulation of all that is wrong with Israel's leaders today. Like his colleagues on the Left, Lieberman touts an attractive sounding policy for dealing with the Arabs which only suffers from the marginal defect of being completely irrational.

The Left demands that we give our enemies Judea, Samaria and the Golan Heights in exchange for a piece of paper. Lieberman intends to keep the Golan Heights, forgo the paper and throw in the Galilee to advance what he sees as ethnic partitioning.

When you get right down to it, the greatest difference between Lieberman and the Left is rhetorical. Lieberman is willing to give our land to our enemies because he hates the Arabs. The Left is willing to give our land to our enemies because they hate the Jews."

Guess who I'm quoting? Someone made of far better stuff.

As we all like to say: read the whole thing.

All is not gold that glitters, Pamela.

[hutchrun]

I was just responding to hutch's hilarious comment.- Azari
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Laugh while you can - there`s little else you can do. It gets even funnier when the guy coming for you is your own iranian `brudder`.

And the US troops won`t be there to save laughing iranians as they canibalise each other. No PC there.

[hutchrun]

You guys screwed up the whole ME, and now think you can keep on fighting it? With who? With what? Laughable.
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Ah I get it now - why you are laughing i.e. Obviously you have comprehension problems.
The post clear calls for the iranians to eliminate their own.
Go to the site and read the whole thing to find out what the future might hold for the `false` muslims in Syria.
As for the ME being a mess, it was that a long time ago - in fact since the `slave trade` began dying out in the West.