Speaking Truth to IslamThe Forum for Truth

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                **SPENCER, WAFA, SHOEBAT AUDIO LOADED -- SCROLL**

                                      AMERICA"S TRUTH FORUM
                            "ISLAM IS A POLITICAL MOVEMENT"

Lots of interesting little details: for example, more than a couple of speakers were contacted by government agencies and by media (in one case CNN) to strongly recommend they not speak at this symposium. It's not enough  that the jihad-loving media actively deceives the American people about the gravity of Islamic fundamentalism by ignoring it and distorting and twisting reality; here you find that they are trying to shut truth-tellers up.

Photo right: Bruce Tefft, Robert Spencer, Harvey Kushner

More than anything, what was impressed upon me was that Islam was not so much a religion as it is a political ideology -- and a violent, oppressive one. More dangerous than any previous threat in world history.

And while it was not a political conference, the ramifications of Tuesday night's election results worried the panelists.

Many of the speakers came at great personal risk to their safety. All live under constant threat of death. "I know they want to kill me."

SHOT OF THE DAY..........love that woman! Much thanks to John of the Lodge for snapping it. He caught the moment.

Wafa and me ...will begin download of her remarks as well as the others.

Posing questions to Robert Spencer and Jim Gilchrist.

Wafa VLOG, modern day heroine.

I cannot load the audio right now -- I don't have the Digital wave software (laptopless) -- so check back on Monday for Walid Shoebat (photo below), Wafa Sultan, and Robert Spencer's complete remarks. I will continue to update this post ... but not tonight.

The objective of this forum was to inform the American people of the violent, relentless enemy intent on world domination. Distressing that only a couple of hundred people showed ........ a couple heard of the symposium from Atlas and thanked me profusely. But the jihad-enabling media blackout is the jihad's best weapon. It's frightening. We've got to build this alternative news source. Got to.

UPDATE: Radicals Refuse to Negotiate November 12, 2006:

The violence in the south is increasing, with Islamic terrorists ambushing police patrols, and increasing their attacks on Buddhist clergy. The Islamic radical groups have shown no interest in negotiating with the government.

It's worldwide, coming to your hometown...........Killing Little Children for the Cause Strategy Page

November 12, 2006: A good example, of how self-destructive Islamic radicalism is, can be seen in the continuing campaign to stop polio vaccinations. Several years ago, Islamic conservatives in Nigeria began urging parents to refuse polio vaccinations for their children. Eventually, this thwarted the worldwide effort to wipe out polio, because dozens of new cases appeared in Nigeria. All this comes from paranoid rumors that the medicine was a Western attempt to sterilize Moslem children. The Nigerian government put pressure on conservative Islamic leaders to stop preaching against the vaccination program, with mixed results. Islamic radicals are preaching against other types of vaccinations as well, causing something of an "Islamic Plague" among the growing number of unvaccinated children.

One of the most speakers, Dr. Babu Suseelan, discussed Islam's continued threat to world peace from a Hindu perspective. He recounted the history of mass slaughter of Hindus and Sikhs, and implored the West to join together -- Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, all people, to battle the enormous Islamic threat. How does he know? Go here.

The following item was posted inside a major Mosque in London : 

"If a kafir (non-Muslim) is going into a Muslim country and he is walking by, he is like a cow. Anyone can take him. That is the Islamic rule. If Muslims cannot take them, you know, and sell them in the market, then kill them. It is ok".

Wafa Sultan: "Honor killing is a way of life in the Middle East."

Oh, and btw, excellent Steve Emerson video: click here to view or go to this link.

A.P.: AL-QAIDA VOW TO REACH J'LEM, BLOW UP WHITE HOUSE

More Al Qaeda pearls of wisdom here at FOX News; hat tip Pam

Leader of al-Qaida in Iraq Mocks Bush

BAGHDAD, Iraq —  A new recording Friday attributed to the leader of al-Qaida in Iraq mocked President Bush as a coward whose conduct of the war was rejected at the polls, challenging him to keep U.S. troops in the country to face more bloodshed. "We haven't had enough of your blood yet,"taunted terror chieftain Abu Hamza al-Muhajir, identified as the speaker on the tape.

In a television interview, Hassan Nasrallah threatened to have his supporters take to the streets if Siniora’s government remained in power.

And yeah, this is going to be tough to take.

UPDATE: Robert Spencer has a wonderful post here on this conference.
The audio for his remarks will be up later, if I can find my way back to NY.  Don't ask ........

Spencer's JihadWatch is the most comprehensive, informative website on Islam. His latest work, The Truth about Muhammad, is the definitive book on the subject -- a must read now. And yet for all of his profound thinking and meticulous research, I gotta tell you, I found him to be the  most engaging, charming sharp, concise, funny man. He's a pistol, razor-sharp, but the message this scholar delivers is grave. The depth and breadth of Spencer's knowledge on Islam and the Quran is without peer. Check out Andrew Bostom, Charles Johnson and Bruce Thornton's review here.

UPDATE November 13: Here are ROBERT SPENCER'S unedited remarks.
Download Spencer1111.wav

WAFA SULTAN Audio here: Download wafa_sultan1111.wav

WALID SHOEBAT Audio here: Download walid_shoebat1111.wav

Footnote: I have not given white space to the Islamic apologist Hamid Mir. (He is the only journalist to have met with Osama bin Laden and Ayman al Zawahri since the September 11, 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.) He fought intermittently with Spencer and Sultan and was disingenuous about the facts concerning Islam. Each time his inaccuracies were starkly pointed out, he would cop out to, "I am not an Islamic scholar."

At one point, Sultan called him out on "Islamic tolerance." She asked Mir, "if Islam is tolerant of other religions then why can a Muslim man marry a Christian or a Jew, but a Muslim woman can not? She will be killed. Honor Killing."

He lost all credibility with me well before he said that Hezb'Allah was disarmed after the Israel/Islamic conflict this past summer. He was on a mission, and when Janet over at Frontpage mag sent me this gem, it all made sense:

I just had a conversation with a Muslim reformist and author/publisher from Pakistan who is threatened by fatwas by the likes of Al Qaeda.  He confirmed that non-Muslim journalists have been able to interview Osama when Osama wanted to convey a particular message to the West.  However, he stated that no Muslim reporter can reach OBL unless he agrees with his jihadist mission to establish the worldwide Caliphate.  According to my well-respected source, AQ has intelligence (often dating back to a person's youth) on all Muslims in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, India, Malaysia and Indonesia who are active in any field.  It is therefore impossible to survive, let alone live, in Osama's territory if you are an  active Muslim and don't agree with the jihad.  In other words, it is impossible to hide from AQ in that region. 

Furthermore, according to this Pakistani publisher who lives on the West Coast, Hamid Mir was on an AQ-sanctioned mission to the West. He maintains that AQ provides tickets, photographers, bodyguards, etc. for its operatives to come to America and talk to the public.  The PTF was used for their purposes and ultimately gave him a legitimate forum to further the deception of the West.  Hamid will now be able to return home and report on his mission.  His photographer will provide proof of a successful mission that included the Hamid's participation in a forum composed of many of the prominent anti-jihadists in America today.

There was a good deal of back and forth between Spencer and Mir, and I would have VLOGGED it, but video was not allowed. I scored the little I have clandestinely. Spencer wiped the floor with him, because Spencer's arguments are based in fact, not Islamic propaganda. Mir is a plant.

Photo: Hamid Mir on the right of Harvey Kushner.

UPDATE: More on the problem of tools like Hamid Mir. Janet adds:

What was so upsetting about the crowd's response to Hamid Mir on Saturday is that the desire to accept Muslims and some sort of peaceful message from them, however disingenuous, seemed to supersede the will to confront a frightening reality head-on.  A careful vetting of Hamid and a through examination of his motives and allegiances requires the acceptance of an intolerable reality.  It necessitates the unquestioned realization of the brutality that must be perpetrated by our peace-loving Christian nation if we are to survive. 

This was an intervention by the Kumbaya school of thought in the face of an unreconcilable enemy.  "If Muslims see how virtuous and wonderful we are, they'll change their minds about wanting to kill us."  The wishful, reality-defying cheers of the crowd reinforced this perception.   The fact that dissenters were admonished to "be polite" and even viewed with disdain by the majority for expressing the unpopular truth was further evidence of this suicidal mindset.

Certainly a great many of us saw through the bullshit. The problem is that once America begins to wake up (it's inevitable), this will be the modus operandi of the Islamists and the left and the dhimmicrats will embrace the "engaging of dialogue." Translation: a campaign of deceit and deception, while all the while  Islamists plot and plan to destroy us.

UPDATE: Robert Spencer lays out the contretemps with Hamid here -- point by point. Read it all.........

Hamid Mir and Q

The America's Truth Forum symposium in Las Vegas ended with a bang on Saturday afternoon, when a Q-and-A featuring most of the participants (some, alas, including Walid Shoebat and Babu Suseelan, had earlier flights to catch) devolved into an exchange between Pakistani journalist Hamid Mir and me about Islam and the Qur'an.

This was because Hamid Mir asserted in his address that the Qur'an did not sanction lying, and that it held a non-Muslim's life to be equal in worth to that of a Muslim's, and that Islamic tolerance was exemplified by the fact that Jewish and Christian women could marry Muslim men without having to convert to Islam.

I responded during the Q and A to point out that Qur'an 3:28 and 16:106 not only sanction deception of unbelievers, but are taken to do so by mainstream Qur'anic commentators such as Ibn Kathir and others, and that mainstream Islamic law does not hold a non-Muslim's life as equal in value to that of a Muslim, and that the fact that a Jewish or Christian man may not marry a Muslim woman without converting to Islam was a manifestation of the Islamic supremacism that was fueling today's jihad activity.

Mir replied by saying he really didn't know much about Islam, and asked, "Why are you pushing me to adopt a more radical form of Islam?" This is, of course, a charge that Dean Esmay and others have made: that by speaking of the way jihadists use the Qur'an and Islamic theology, I am only encouraging them. But whether coming from Mir or Esmay or anyone else, this charge is false, and hides an unwillingness by self-proclaimed moderate Muslims to do what they must do: confront and combat the jihad ideology. Mir, after all, made several assertions about the Qur'an and Islam. If he wasn't prepared to back them up, he shouldn't have made them -- although perhaps he wasn't expecting to be challenged on factual grounds.

And this is the problem. Islamic spokesmen in the West make statements like Mir's to non-Muslims every day, and those non-Muslims are eager to hear them and be reassured about Islam. But I continue to maintain that such reassurance is worthless if these moderates are not able or willing to do battle with the jihadists on theological grounds. If the moderate version of Islam is not convincing to Muslims, it is worthless. And if I can see the holes in it from an Islamic standpoint, so can Muslims. Thus I stand by my statements at the symposium on Saturday afternoon: the jihadists are making recruits among Muslims daily by appealing to the Qur'an and Sunnah. Peaceful Muslims should not ignore or deny this, but should acknowledge the aspects of Islam that are giving rise to violence, and repudiate and fight against them. Otherwise this recruitment will continue unabated.

There's more; go there now.

UPDATE: More Wafa video here. Dr. Wafa Sultan Contends that Islam Preaches Violence.

Comments

[Vince]

I love that video of her on Arabic. One of the best.

[Vince]

Arabic TV that is

[John D. Infidel]

I remember Wafa said ... 'you can worship stones as long as you don't throw them at me' ... not an exact quote but it's one of my favorite quotes and one that I believe will endure for many generations to come.

[justamomof4]

I would have liked to go but it's my sons birthday . . .but now you show Wafa Sultan - and I'm feeling a bit jealous!

Good on ya Pamela! Sending my best regards to the anti-jihad crew. Looking forward to reading and watching the updates.

[BillBowen]

Pam, great pix! Give Wafa a big hug for me and tell her I very much admire her courage AND clarity. Vince, that appearance of Wafa's on Arabic TV was a powerful statement - I'm glad that piece ended up in "Obsession".

Best to all the folks at the conference and I'll be looking forward to updates.

[Syndic Nuruodo]

Oh, I just love Robert, Wafa and Walid !
They are enlightened and brave people. Wish I could be there, but it's a long way from Haifa to Las Vegas...

Thanks for sharing your experience, Pamela.

[AmericanJewess]

We don't have many heroes today, people with integrity and extraordinary courage, but Dr. Wafa Sultan is one of them. Or who knows -- maybe there are lots of heroes in the world today but the MSM does its level best to obscure them from view. At any rate, Gd bless Dr. Sultan. Does she have a public email address where we can write to her and give her moral support?

[steve expat]

Gee, I wonder why only a few hundred people showed up to hear the same old racist drivel? I think you've now milked 9/11 for every ounce of fearmongering you could get. If you still can't see that war is not going to solve the problems for the U.S. or Israel or the world,then you will never see it. What do you actually want the U.S. to do next? Attack Iran? North Korea? Whose kids will you be sending to fight these wars? Not yours, I'm sure. Do you think that we should have a draft? If not, why?
By the way, Pamela, who was it you were "carrying water" for? Bush? Rumsfeld? Cheney? Rice? Which of these people do you now admit is incompetent and you were only lying about to protect the Republican power base? If you thought that Rumsfeld was incompetent and you supported him anyway, then there is blood on your hands, no?

[neverforget]

Hey, expat, stay that way you low-life, propagandizing POS.

[Thomas Carney]

expat: Yeah, typical liberal response... saying the truth is racist because it doesn't fit your unreal world view.

Is Islam dangerous?? Damn right it is. History has proven this time and time again. It appalls me that so many Americans would rather stick their heads in the sand and not deal with the danger that Islam poses to Western civilization (what's left of Western civilization, that is).

Sir Winston Churchill, Presidents John Quincy Adams and Thomas Jefferson had written plenty on how dangerous Islam is.

This isn't a 21st Century phenomenon. It is a 1384 year phenomenon.

What really scares me is that some unnamed government masturbators called some of the speakers and asked them not to speak out. This only proves how much our government is getting more and more out of touch with the people in this country.

That's really frightening... the policy wonks are out of it.

[MoleOnABull]

Thank you for what you are doing, Pamela, keep up the good work! You are right, this new media must be built up.

[justamomof4]

Pam opens this thread with this tidbit :

" more than a couple of speakers were contacted government agencies and by media (in one case CNN) to strongly recommend they not speak at this symposium"

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!!!

CNN dictates who can speak in the USA??!!

What government officials. . .what branch . . .I WANT NAMES DAMN IT!

Pamela, thank you for providing this information and keep up the great work!

I wonder if ex-pats mommy still tucks him in at night tho - he certainly enjoys his lullabyes.

[Richard Davis]

Atlas, thanks for the great videos, everyone should watch them.

Robert Spencer says we need to investigate the mosques, see whose name is on the lease, who funds them, who speaks there, etc... it's a big task for each of us, but we should try.

I believe it is best done with a friends, so I urge everyone to find that friend, that buddy, that fellow soldier, and work together. Support and encourage each other. It's hard, but not impossible.

It's easier said than done, doing the right thing is hard...

Insulting is easy, just look at the trolls.

expat - why do you come here? What is your purpose?

Go listen to the audios or videos that Pamela brings here.

You have allowed yourself to be brainwashed and misguided into believing that radical Islam will somehow go away if America lets them alone... you are wrong about that.

This blog is an opportunity for people to hear stories that the Main Stream Media won't report.

America needs to hear them.

expat - you are not adding anything here but hateful banter, and you are wasting your time here.
You have nothing to offer.

Many of us have served or are serving in the military and I do encourage my kids to join the service. And those who do, do it because they believe in their hearts that we are in the fight of our lives, they deserve our praise and support. You might think you're something unique or important when you leave your childish comments but you are not.

[x_dhimmi]

expat: If you still can't see that war is not going to solve the problems for the U.S. or Israel or the world,then you will never see it.
==+==
Tell it to the jihadis. Keep your head about you when you do.

[x_dhimmi]

You're real ballsy, Steve, to come to this forum & challenge. I suggest you prove your manhood by taking your message to "Palestine" or al-Qaeda or Nasrallah or anywhere the jihadis walk freely. After you do that, then you'll have the credibilty to claim you are wise and brave. Til then, you are presenting as a child. Grow a pair, then come back to us.

[turn]

Sometimes you just have to pick apart what someone is saying to get at the truth.

"Gee, I wonder why only a few hundred people showed up to hear the same old racist drivel?"

What did you expect--an Arrowsmith concert? These are scolarly people and these events are expensive to produce and attend. AND. Islam is not a race.

"I think you've now milked 9/11 for every ounce of fearmongering you could get."

Bali, Madrid, London, Somalia, The Sudan. Take your 9/11 blinders off! 9/11 wasn't a 'oneoff'.

"If you still can't see that war is not going to solve the problems for the U.S. or Israel or the world,then you will never see it. What do you actually want the U.S. to do next? Attack Iran? North Korea?"

War must be met with war. Other than that, it's just mass suicide. There's more talk of military options against those two now than there was six months ago. They're dangerous.

"Whose kids will you be sending to fight these wars? Not yours, I'm sure. Do you think that we should have a draft? If not, why?"

Now I can't speak for Pam and her kids. But I'm preparing my three children for exactly that eventuality.

"If you thought that Rumsfeld was incompetent and you supported him anyway, then there is blood on your hands, no?"

Is it just me--or does the phrasing of his last question appear...well...fwench?

[x_dhimmi]

Unfortunately, the bloody hands of pacifists and their ilk, if successful in obtructing appropriate response to the jihadi war on the West, will be the blood of their own families.

[steve expat]

I'd respond to facts from arguments made here if any were presented. I will only say that any of you under the age of 42 who aren't running out to your military recruiting office should not be advocating wars that we don't even have the troops to fight. Anyone over the age of 42 here, that has children, should be encouraging them to join the military, right. If you really believe that we are fighting against some Islamic monster that must be stopped, then don't lecture me on my lack of vigilance while you sit in front of a computer with your clean, white gloves on.
And really, calling me French or "Fwench" or other silly attacks like that is so 2,004. You really need some new ad hominem material for next election, since you certainly won't win by yelling "jihad" every 2 seconds.

[x_dhimmi]

Steve, YOU are the person claiming clean, white gloves. So Mickey Mouse, just like your utopia in which you can ignore war and it will ignore you right back. So moralistically snobbish it reeks of impossibility. Foolish. Defeatist. Self-immolating. Naive.

Really, Steve, I could only have an indulgent, patronizing reaction to the positions you put forth if I were conversing w/a child. You just keep banging your head against reality. You truly are beginning to remind me of my ten-year-old grandchild when he argues w/his parents.

For facts, ignore everything you read here or on any "right" blog. Read anything that spews from the mouth of any Islamist. Then believe your own eyes. Can't make it any plainer than that. None of us can, in two paragraphs, give you the insight we have gained from five years of research. You're going to have to do the grunt work yourself.

If you think for one second you will change any minds here, you are clueless. As is anyone who thinks response to your temper tantrums can change your views. Therefore, I do not attempt to refute flower-power-live-and-let-live-i'm-okay-you're-okay-you-do-your-thing-i'll-do-my-thing-you-are-you-and-i-am-i-and-if-by-chance-we-meet-and-fall-in-love-it's-beautiful rhetoric (bulls**t). I actually used to buy into that crap, but I was an immature child. Well, it's not difficult to impress a child. But what I can do for you is tell you it will all change for you when the shit comes down. And that won't be from the U.S. gov't; that'll be from the threat you are too fearful to face or admit exists. Be happy under your fuzzy blankey, Steve, for as long as possible. Blessings.

[lowandslow]

When all else fails use the chickenhawk argument. As predicable as the sunrise.

[upyernoz]

it is funny to watch everyone pile on steve and yet no one is making any effort to answer any of the questions he asked.

dismissing someone by labeling them "ignorant" is not an argument. nor is it all that convincing. no wonder the president's approval ratings hit 31% this week. with supporters like this, all you can possibly do is further isolate yourself.

[the poetess]

upyernoz, steve's questions, for the most part, were answered by both commentors and by the videos. Your nic fits quite nicely.

It worries me also that governmental agencies are warning the speakers and not participating in these symposiums. Which ones?

[turn]

I could be wrong...but is there ANY govt. agency that would discourage speakers/attendees other than State?

[the poetess]

islam is an arab imperialistic political system dressed in the rags of a religion. It is this political system that we must expose. Sharia, islamic law, cannot exist with our Constitution. Swearing in Keith Ellison on a koran is ludicrous. The book of hell fire and damnation is nothing but a diatribe against all non-believers and promotes jihad and hate, infecting millions with its nihilistic disease.

Dhimmis and neo-cons neither care or are concerned with the fate of their nation, only with filling their own coffers and increasing their power over the "citizens" whom they see as peons. Bending over for islam and oil is a bipartisan pc/multicultural problem in our government.

I'm thrilled that Wafa has filled Oriana's shoes. Thank God for her and Brigitte Gabriel and Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

[the poetess]

turn, the State Dept. was my thought too. But I'm sure there are other agencies that might try to discourage them (such as Homeland Security) as they are targets for jihadis due to their high profile

[x_dhimmi]

UYN,

1) Steve's questions were not typed to elicit information, but to establish his moral superiority.

2) TURN spent time answering Steve's "questions," regardless. Why are you trying to marginalize TURN by pretending TURN ignored Steve's "questions"?

Glad you're having fun, UPN.

[x_dhimmi]

The Poetess,

hmmm ...Your theory Re: a gov't agency discouraging high-profile and potential targets from speaking publically is interesting. I'm not sure why you think that, tho.

Would you think in order to protect individual lives for the sake of the target? Or (and this is more in line w/my thinking) because a successful hit on any of these high-visibility persons could touch off a groundswell of demand that "somebody" PAY and, also, could incite violence against muslims in the US?

I'm thinking those charged w/national security do not want angry mobs demanding vengence -- totally possible reaction to an assassination on US soil.

Matter of fact, I've thought for a while that the more public someone is w/their criticisms of Islamists, the "safer" they may be because of the knee-jerk reaction harm to the person would bring. This goes for persons in the US and maybe in some European nations. We've all seen how Van Gogh's murder was treated as an unfortunate incident.

Just riffing off your comment. Best, Deb

[Geoff]

"I will only say that any of you under the age of 42 who aren't running out to your military recruiting office should not be advocating wars that we don't even have the troops to fight. Anyone over the age of 42 here, that has children, should be encouraging them to join the military, right."

Many do so. My children would be allowed to join the military if they so chose, Stevie. Regrettably for you, they are both under the age of five, but not to fear: if your impression of foreign policy is permitted to dominate the Western spectrum of expression, then I have little doubt that the shores of war with the islamic world will draw ever nearer.

"If you really believe that we are fighting against some Islamic monster that must be stopped, then don't lecture me on my lack of vigilance while you sit in front of a computer with your clean, white gloves on."

Well, for the moment, Stevie, I and my children have rather other concerns, such as their education. I am nowhere near eligible or useful in such public service, which is not to say that I have not so served. I have. I wonder if you have.

"And really, calling me French or "Fwench" or other silly attacks like that is so 2,004."

Bein, non, j'accord. Mais quand même c`est bien sûr que t`as pas le courage des autres gens plus...civique. Dommage, ça. Pour toi, et la civilization.

"You really need some new ad hominem material for next election, since you certainly won't win by yelling "jihad" every 2 seconds."

What does "yelling jihad" have to do with ad hominem? I assume you are at least passingly familiar with logical fallacy? Your comments on drafts, Bush and government suggests, indeed, that you are, though perhaps not in the way that an educated person should be.

Geoff

[Vince]

I'm making a program that plots the attacks cited on Religion of peace.com onto a map for a given time period. It's obvious people who view the Jihad with 1968centric thinking are deluded.

http://home.comcast.net/~vincep312/TROP1.jpg

[justamomof4]

The quote given in the updated post above. . .

"If a kafir (non-Muslim) is going into a Muslim country and he is walking by, he is like a cow. Anyone can take him. That is the Islamic rule. If Muslims cannot take them, you know, and sell them in the market, then kill them. It is ok".

. . .was from a sermon given by Sheik Abu Hamza. Here is the link where you can view him spouting this venom:

http://johnathangaltfilms.com/movie.html

Look for Video Clip #3 and fast forward to 2:00 marker. Turn up the volume.

[traeh]

steve expat said:

Gee, I wonder why only a few hundred people showed up to hear the same old racist drivel?

If it's "racist," why aren't the "racists" also up in arms about non-Muslim Africans and non-Muslim Asians coming to the West? Anyway, with most Muslims there is not much to be racist about. They look like white people with an attractive tan, to me. I don't and can't know your motives for your false racist accusation, Steve, but I know that totalitarian Islam's apologists frequently use "racism" as a fig leaf to cover the embarrassments of Islam's totalitarianism. Some on the left also use the "racist" euphemism, but do so for different reasons, sometimes well-meaning, but badly misguided.

I think you've now milked 9/11 for every ounce of fearmongering you could get.

Astronomer Royale Martin Rees a few years ago made a bet for about a thousand pounds that within the next decade or so, a million people would die in a single event of bioterror or bioerror. It's a bet he hopes to lose, but doesn't think he will. Just the other day, two top scholars at Foreign Affairs Journal wrote an article about how it would require only about 20 people, with between five and ten million dollars, to get all the materials necessary and assemble a ten-kiloton Hiroshima size bomb inside the U.S. It could be transported in a van with four people.

The only reason we need fear mongerers -- people who sell fear -- is because a large part of the population have their heads in the sand about the rapidly increasing dangers. Naturally few people want to consider uncomfortable thoughts.

This is not just a problem with Islam, though Islam gravely exacerbates the problem. Unfortunately, the trend of the ever accelerating advance of technology is toward the invention of WMD in ever more varieties, ever more quickly, with ever greater lethal power, at ever lower cost, and ever greater accessibility to ever larger numbers of people. Probably the only hope of managing and controlling the destructive potentials of rapidly advancing WMD tech will be through a kind of worldwide social and governmental transparency of a sort far more intrusive into privacy than Westerners and many others are accustomed to. I hope it will happen in a way that preserves freedom. I hope it will not be like Brave New World or 1984. In the context of rapid WMD innovation, Islam is hugely dangerous, but not the only danger. Any little nut or fool could start the apocalypse.

If you still can't see that war is not going to solve the problems for the U.S. or Israel or the world,then you will never see it.

The only problem with this part of your comment is that it is too general. Sometimes war won't solve problems. Sometimes it will. It depends on the specific circumstances. One huge problem in our world is that people either refuse any generalizations, or they insist on absolute generalizations. People who limit generalizations to specific frames of reference are rare. The part of your comment above about war is too absolute and too disregarding of specific circumstances.

What do you actually want the U.S. to do next? Attack Iran? North Korea?

Maybe there are no good solutions, or maybe the solution in these cases is not war. But do you suggest we do nothing? It is easy to criticize, as you do, but what is your alternative? Do nothing? Do you care if Israel is nuked? Do you care if North Korea passes nuclear and missile technology to Iran and Middle Eastern buyers? Do you care that with each new nuclear weapons nation, it will become more difficult to trace a terrorist nuclear detonation to the supplier nation (if there is one), with the result that terrorists will be able to detonate such bombs with something like impunity for the state source?

Whose kids will you be sending to fight these wars? Not yours, I'm sure.

You can't be sure of that, at least not justifiably so. You are just using ad hominem with that part of your statement. You imply that because there is no draft, and we are safe from having to send our kids to war, our arguments are invalidated. But that makes as much sense as if I claimed to invalidate your arguments because you are afraid you might have to send your kids to war if a draft were enacted. An argument should be evaluated on its own merits, not by attributing secret ignoble motives you cannot prove exist. Assume people are innocent until proven guilty. That means stay away from hidden motives you cannot observe, and focus on facts and logic of the argument itself.

By the way, Pamela, who was it you were "carrying water" for? Bush? Rumsfeld? Cheney? Rice? Which of these people do you now admit is incompetent and you were only lying about to protect the Republican power base? If you thought that Rumsfeld was incompetent and you supported him anyway, then there is blood on your hands, no?

This is just ad hominem and animus, not an attempt at objective dialogue. If I fall into ad hominem, remind me, and I'll stop. Let's try to make progress here, not descend into hellish name calling.

[steve expat]

I think I see what this "logic" is all about, now, after reading the well thought out responses to my posts. If you can just blame everything on evil "Islam" and "jihad", etc. then you don't need to justify anything else. Drop bombs on villages - Islam must be stopped and even the kids are Islamic. They are rats to be exterminated.
Torture people - These people are just so hung up on their religion that torture is the only way to get the information we need.
Make up stories about weapons of mass destruction: Well, they're Islamic jihadists, so they would have made them eventually.
Detain people in secret prisons: Hey, they're jihadists, we can't treat them like normal prisoners of war in every other war.
Diplomacy: Hey the jihadists only listen to force.
I mean, who needs nuance when you have a horse's ass like Bush in office, anyway. The big, tough war president is going to show them who's boss. Just go in and smash those "terrorists" or "jihadists" or "ragheads" (as I'm sure many of you say in your more private moments) and America and Israel will be safe. You actually thought that the Iraqi people were going to be thrilled that we went in and bombed them to the stone age. Think about the absurdity of that. Think about how you are arguing that torture, bombing civilians, and illegal detention is okay in this special case. You are really kidding yourselves. People are people. No religion is going to change that in the long term. Sure, people will use religion to inflame the passions and twist the meaning of things, just as the Christian leaders have done for centuries. And we're doing nothing but giving them fodder to do so.

[C3Bees]

Pamela, thank you for putting forth this info. Have been visiting your site for several months, and feel as though I'm better informed because of it.

Expat, you need to emote less and reason more. (This advise comes from a veteran, who is the wife of a now retired army Sgt and mother of a MP Lt. that we just saw off to Iraq 2 weeks ago.)

Are our efforts in the war on terror perfect? NO. But the consequeces of not doing enough are to grave to even consider

[Vince]

Steve's use of bigory and stereotyping is interesting considering that he purports to be against it.

[yonason]

IS ISLAM 'POLITICAL?'

Well, the current worldwide Islamic terror movement is. And they are enlisting the average Muslim on the street to do his part, too. Before 9/11 there were scads of Islamic political action websites.

After 9/11, some of the groups couldn't just reinvent themselves, like all the others that remained on the web, but had to go underground because they actively advocated jihad. One of the most disturbing things I saw on one, was a very active and massive effort to make contact with, and ingratiate themselves to every governmental agency they could, from local, state up to federal, and law enforcement including the FBI.

They would contrive 'concerns' that they needed addressed, and played 'victimhood' in a way that would leave a favorable inpression. 'What? Those helpless Muslims who need our help involved in terror? Can't be? I know them?'

Very clever, no?

I don't know how long that had been going on, but it appeared (a year before 9/11) that they had already been at it for some time.

Now, if you 'Google' it, you get the following...

"Results 1 - 10 of about 6,220,000 for islam, political action. (0.16 seconds)"

OVER 6 MILLION ITEMS on the topic?! There's a lot going on there.

So, just what are they doing? I think of it this way.

"Moderate" Islam, which attempts to get what it wants legally, is like a glove. "Militant" Islam (their psycho savage side) is like a hammer which would 'damage' the rest of Islam by association, UNLESS the rest of them played at being activist 'moderates.'

If you want to break something hard, but don't want to hurt your hand, you hold the object you want to break in something soft, like a cushioned glove, while you hit it with the hammer held in the other hand. That way you don't damage the hand holding the object you want to break.

We need to see them as working together, but oddly that's harder after the terror attacks. The victims think that by embracing the "moderates," who have appeared to them to be actively participanting according to the rules of the society they live in, they will get the 'bad' Muslims to stop the terror. And that's what they want us to think. The appearance of moderation insulates them from the victim's concern, allowing them to manuver the victim into various positions for the next strike, without jeopardizing the essential role of the "moderates."

Here's a really slick website, which pretends there is a difference between the radicals and the everyday Joe, or Machmud, or whatever.
http://www.loompanics.com/Articles/PoliticalIslam.html
Note how he concludes with a, the USA is evil meme, but he only hits you with that AFTER he gets your sympathy by telling the truth about how ruthless the jihadis are. You see, he's posturing as a victim of both the jihadis, AND 'misguided' American policy which he alleges SUPPORTS the terrorists!!!. It's sort of like he's saying: "Oh, if only the USA would be more accomodating to us 'moderates' then all would be well."

Remember, you don't have to fool ALL of the people all the time, just enough of them to cause confusion and seperation within the victim country.

On one hand a glove, in the other a hammer.

[Vince]

I see "moderate" Muslims like this

1 - They still somehow managed to retain a few ounces of humanity within them to not actually saw someone's head off but not enough that they don't mind if someone else does it

2 - Was born into the thing, doesnt' really know anything about it, yet it's the culture they grew up in so they just go along with society and support what everyone does. (Basically like a Catholic cept instead of pedophile preists you have murderous fanatics (semi-sarcasm :))

The fundamentalists of islam have risen in the past 100 years and brought certain things to a head. A Muslim can no longer sit on the fence about their faith. You either support your moon god , Satan or you don't. The Jihadis no longer offer you the chance of being complacent, you must choose.. Islam or life.

[majdvmphd]

I applaud the heroism of Shoebat and others. However, should we all really be surprised at the risk they are taking by speaking out? The writing was on the wall in 1988 when Salman Rushdie published "The Satanic Verses", prompting Ruhollah Khomeini to issue a fatwa. And that was only 18 years ago. Same shit, different century.

[Albertanator]

Steve, what you and other liberals are so badly missing is that Islam is inherently evil and violent to its core....its founder was a murdering, looting ,rape advocating, wife beating monster.....THAT IS FACT that is recorded in the Quran and Sunnah...their is no way getting around it...

Open your narrow vile mind and ask yourself why muslims are fighting from the Southern Phillipines to Nigeria and all points in between????

It's Islam stupid....Its Jihad....Islam is a cyborg that will never quit until we destroy it or ourselves are enslaved to it....

For 1400 years Islam has been doing the same thing .....only Nazism and Marxism compare to its brutality....again...FACTS...ask Hindus what they think of Islam?

The funny thing is if Islam were ever to takeover in the West, it would be people like Steve and other useful idiots that would be the first to be exectuted....Islam hates you....but they will gladly use you!!

Study the Quran and Sunnah and then get back to me.....otherwise, grow the hell up!!

We are at War!!!

[sharinlite]

Every human being must read and study Islam. We cannot fight what we cannot totally understand. If we don't begin to pay very serious attention to what Islamic aims are, I guarantee you that we will be under Sharia Law within the next 200 years! Check out this site: gandalf-reconquista.blogspot.com, read a basic outline of Islam and you will understand what we are facing. Robert Spencer and Wafa are trying to do everything they can.

The Democrats have taken control, but it truly will not make one wit of difference in taxes, education, foreign policy because we have been marching toward Sharia Law for decades. We fool only ourselves. It is permissible to negotiate in Islam, but Muslims don't have to honor any agreement.

We allowed this to happen with our oil consumption. We made them rich and now they want the pie, that's what they've always wanted, total totalitarian control under Sharia Law for the entire planet.

Don't believe me? Do yourself a favor and get educated. I don't worry for me but for my grandchildren and the future of America, the last and greatest experiment on the planet earth in the history of mankind. Islam will undo in 100 years what 50,000 years of growth in humankind did.

I have my own idea for a solution, but greater minds than mine will have to come together all over the planet to get us out of this mess! That's my post..the end.

[godfreyofbouillon]

So Steve, I have blood on my hands for supporting Rumsfeld? Actually, if you want to resort to those type of dramatic arguments, it would be more accurate to say you have blood on your hands. Let me explain...Every terrorist organization from Al Qaeda to Hizbollah has been celebrating the Democrat victory. Now this could be for several reasons

1. They really like the Democratic stance on homosexual rights
2. They love the way Democrats stick up for woman's right to choose
3. They think that it's a hell of a lot easier to hit US cities with a nuclear weapon without a patriot act and without having to commit their "fighters" and incur heavy casualties fighting the US army in Iraq.

..mmm I'd say number three. Criminals sense weakness and sharks smell blood. So Steve I hope you are real proud of yourself. Somewhere in Iraq there is a jihadi with a big smile on his face preparing to go out to kill US soldiers (whose brave sacrifices kept you from suffering another major attack for years since 9/11) giddy over the ideas that inflicting mere scores of casualties on US soldiers who were killing jihadis by the thousands in Iraq was enough to make tools such as yourself vote For Dems who will cut and run from Iraq so the jihadis can have more resources to focus on the US homeland. You think I'm making this up? Didn't Al Qaeda in Iraq release a a tape congratulating you on your wise choice, and promising to reward it by killing more US soldiers and attacking the homeland itself (the White House)? Thank you Steve, you are a swell human being.

[traeh]

Sheesh, Steve expat shows the left is no more original than the right these days. Both sides have become too mentally thuggish to engage in dialogue without insulting and demonizing those with whom they disagree. Almost the definition of barbarism, and we are all falling into it, aren't we.

The political right and the political left both have a kind of cerebral hemiplegia. We need to learn to use both sides of our brains again, and failing that, we need to be more devoted to reality and listening to others' views and less to our own egos and being correct. And that's as true of the left as it is of the right.

[Vince]

Traeh:

Thanks for your useful comments about the way the left and right attack each other. I was particularly persuaded by the way you emulated them in your attack. It's so cool when folks like you engage in the very thing that you purport to criticize.

[steve expat]

Godfrey,
No, you don't have blood on your hands for supporting Rumsfeld if you actually believed he was doing a good job. You were a bit deluded, but not blood on your hands. I was referring to Pamela's admission that she, like Rush Limbaugh, had been "carrying water" for incompetent people simply to help keep Republicans in power.

Traeh,
I don't even know what the terms "left" and "right" are actually supposed to mean in terms of politics, so if you can tell me, I'd appreciate it. I'm not sure what war, taxes, guns, abortion, Christianity and country music have in common, so feel free to enlighten me.

[epaminondas]

Pam, I don't envy much...but I'd rather have a picture of me and Wafa Sultan, than any president back to Truman ..Reagan may come close.

CARRY ON!

[epaminondas]

Traeh..I like your style ..but it has one large weakness..you are trying to use logic and facts as the main tool of discourse to change the unchangeable, emotionally immature moral cowardice of those who will adapt to any position within their grasp so as not to have be morally responsible for the final decision..are they personally ready to assume responsibility for the decision to do whatever it takes to win.

We are either ready to do this to ensure our way of life survives, or our way of life is not worth the dirty hands it will inevitably cause.

Those who believe as that individual does, have not even recognized the question. It's too frightening..especially on the distant edge of a POSSIBLE war of the peoples.

[Krund]

I'm impressed by the range of viewpoints presented at "The Forum For Truth." Everything from A to B.

[John D. Infidel]

Pamela, you are so correct about Hamid Mir. I was suspicious of Hamid Mir when he broke to story of AQ having prepositioned nuclear weapons in the United States. There was no way he could have access to AQ leadership and not be on their payroll.

To bad we couldn't implant a tracking device in Mr. Mir.

[John D. Infidel]

Here's something for steve expat:

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest for freedom, go home and leave us in peace. We seek not your council nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." --Samuel Adams

[turn]

Long thread. No more arguments from me. See for yourselves from converts (apostates) from islam:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/index.htm

[Joseph]

Wow, great job Pamela, as usual! I'm so sorry for all the trouble you went through to keep your readers informed and up to date.

Pamela won't ask this but I will:

For those of you who can, won't you please "hit the tip jar" for this blog? The least we could do is help replace Pamela's laptop. If 30 people could give $100, or 60 people could give $50, or whatever the amount, I'm sure it would help.

She does lots of work for us. Let's keep her going. OK? I have no shame. I know.

[Richard Davis]

joseph - you make a great point. Pamela is the hardest hitting blogger out here, she IS a one-woman dynamo, working hard to bring us the TRUTH and get many many many exclusive videos, interviews, photos, and more. Don't forget the trip to Israel last August to bring us close and personal to the front lines...

Anyone who's ever covered a story or took pictures of just ONE EVENT, knows how time consuming and focused you must be to make it happen. The amount of news and quality here is outstanding. I always feel that putting a few bucks into the tip jar every now and then to help keep this going is the best money I ever spend.

[yonason]

Albertanator says "WE ARE AT WAR!!!"

But it appears he's wrong. After all, "America has spoken." And, if they say they aren't at war, well, who are we to argue with them.

Don't get me wrong. We ARE at war. Or, should I say, WE are at war: meaning those of us who see the enemy and the absolute need to irradicate it before it gets us. But the left just don't want to be at war, so they aren't. According to my dictionary that means they've 'surrendered', so for them the fight really is over. Any attempt to pursuade them to continue a fight they've resolved to loose is wasted breath.

Unfortunately, since there seem to be more of them than us, that leaves us stuck with what they want. Of course, we wouldn't have to be, if only more republicans had really been conservative and more of the MSM actually reported the news instead of propagandizing for their party. Sadly, though, that's not been the reality. So I hate to tell you, but the war is over. We lost., BTW. (or at least, will lose, if they have their way).

Even more unfortunately, it appears the Mr. Bush is turning out to be a leader in appearance only. If he can do, as Rush says "a complete 180" on everything he allegedly stood for, than he's no better than Jacques Kerry.

The irony is that some of the recently elected southern Dems are being reported to be more conservative than many of the alleged Reps, and actually have the courage of their convictions. If true, wouldn't THAT be a hoot!!! So, there might actually have been some hope left, if Bush really had a little vision. a little courage, and hadn't quit on us as it seems he has.

[traeh]

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all convictions, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
- Yeats

[PMarc]

Godfrey:

Ave, mon frere chevalier...Ad Hierosylema, seigneur.

Deus veult!