The Innocent Civilian Meme

I am not buying into the innocent civilians meme. If by ignorance, complicity, neglect or helplessness the Lebanese wouldn't throw Hezbollah out and establish a strong government, then they must pay the price for the sins of Hizbollah. And if people put up with dictatorships, theocracies, totalitarian regimes - as they did in Nazi Germany -- they deserve what Hezbollah deserves. Our only concern should be who started the war. Hezbollah/Hamas initiated the use of force and so stepped outside the principle of rights.

NO ONE SHOULD HAVE TO GIVE UP THEIR RIGHT TO SELF DEFENSE FOR FEAR OF HURTING SOMEONE ELSE GUILTY OR INNOCENT. --Ayn Rand

* The Innocent Bystander Myth * IRIS Blog

One of the most bizarre aspects of the current Lebanon crisis is the international community's unanimous insistence that the Lebanese government is an innocent party, and should therefore not be made to suffer for Hezbollah's actions.

And this presumption of Beirut's innocence has inevitably affected criticism of Israel's response to the Hezbollah attacks. Thus, for instance, the European Union's rotating president, Finland, issued a statement last week declaring that the EU "is greatly concerned about the disproportionate use of force by Israel in Lebanon in response to attacks by Hezbollah on Israel… The imposition of an air and sea blockade cannot be justified."

Hezbollah's attack was far from a rogue action committed in defiance of the government: The Lebanese government has actively supported it, in both word and deed.

In any normal country, a junior coalition member that attacked a neighboring country without its partners' consent would be swiftly disavowed and ousted from the government.

Far from repudiating Hezbollah's attacks on Israel, the Lebanese government has actively defended, facilitated and assisted them at every turn. There are thus no grounds for treating it as an innocent party in this conflict.

Photo: KIBBUTZ MERHAVYA, ISRAEL Israeli soldiers salute and cry at the grave site of Yonatan Hadassi yesterday. Hadassi was killed in an exchange of fire with Hezbollah  jihadis. NY Sun

Comments

[TommyG]

How is it that people are so thick-headed? One of the most important weapons in the arsenal of terrorists is public relations. As long as people refuse to accept the reality of "civilian" casualities, the terrorists will always have the upper hand in the p-r battlefield. The "greater good" is always pointed to as a reason why we should contribute more of our honestly earned treasure, but what is the greater good in the war between peace but slavery, and freedom at a cost? I hate to think what the majority of people would choose.

[Cheap Cynicism]

>>If by ignorance, complicity, neglect or helplessness the Lebanese wouldn't throw Hezbollah out and establish a strong government, then they must pay the price for the sins of Hizbollah.<<

The very same justification Al Qaeda used to destroy the World Trade Center!

Aaaannnndddd...we've come full circle!

[CFPeterson]

I was surprised to hear the people of Lebanon LOVE Hezbollah. When Israel pulled out in 2000 the civilians there saw it as Hezballah THREW them out.

Its sad...

[syn]

The photo of the Israeli soldiers breaks my heart. Their lives have been spent fighting for the basic right to survive in peace yet time and again they must mourn the loss of their people all because barbarians refuse to evolve into a civilized society.

May God bless them with determined courage to continue their fight until they are free to live in peace.

[Westerner]

The innocent civilians are the victims of suicide bombers and rockets in Israel. When an entire populace endorses hatred and violence against their neigbor and dresses their infants up in terrorist getups complete with bomb belts, there are no innocent civilians with the sole exception of their own children whom they clearly regard as of little value other than suiciders.

[cleek]

Cheap Cynicism is 100% correct. you just excused every attack Al Queda has ever made.

terrorists everywhere say western civilians are legitimate targets because, even if they don't personally attack Muslims, they elect the governments which do.

[Westerner]

And because terrorists say this, that makes it valid? What?

There will never be any excuse for the atrocities of Al Queda. The Muslims that get attacked are the ones hacking peoples heads off with dull knives while they scream in agony, who send their own children to their deaths wearing suicide belts, who do their fighting in the middle of civilian crowds.

[Robert4]

Hey Westerner, it's NOT valid, that's the point!

Killing civilians is wrong and it's never the right thing to do. And guess what, Lebanon Muslims civilians aren't "hacking peoples [sic] heads off with dull knives" and, if we overlook your blatant hatred of Muslims, Lebanon's Christians, Druze and Baha'i aren't beheading people either.

Reagan said it best: Trust but verify. Unfortunately people are becoming all to eager to pretend that civilians are really terrorists just because they are Lebanese and/or Muslim. CC and cleek are right: Saying that civilians are legitimate targets weakens out fight against terrorists, who target civilians with impunity.

[Robert4]

Hey Westerner, it's NOT valid, that's the point!

Killing civilians is wrong and it's never the right thing to do. And guess what, Lebanon Muslims civilians aren't "hacking peoples [sic] heads off with dull knives" and, if we overlook your blatant hatred of Muslims, Lebanon's Christians, Druze and Baha'i aren't beheading people either.

Reagan said it best: Trust but verify. Unfortunately people are becoming all to eager to pretend that civilians are really terrorists just because they are Lebanese and/or Muslim. CC and cleek are right: Saying that civilians are legitimate targets weakens out fight against terrorists, who target civilians with impunity.

[wwjk]

Shorter Shrug: It's not wrong when we kill women and children because we're the good guys.

[tbond_trader]

TommyG has put it well. Your love of war and lack of compassion for the innocent Lebanese people is EXACTLY the same as their love of war and lack of compassion for the innocent US people.

Yeah that's right, you and all terrorist groups have something in common. You both don't care about the consequences except wanting to blow each other to your respective kingdom comes.

As you shout "KILL! KILL! KILL!" keep in mind that for every terrorist killed, it will most likely create two more from those friends and family left behind that will join the cause.

And all those innocent causalities of war? Yup, they too have family and friends who will join the war. The only difference is that in the US, those innocent causalities will use their pens and in the Middle East they will use the sword.

So keep encouraging the war, and laughing at the deaths of everyone else, except the Israelis. It will ensure that you keep the blood flowing until either all the Extremists or all the Israelis or both, are wiped out because working for peace is stupid.

Right, Ghandi?

[Pamela Geller]

classic MORAL INVERSION .........

oh and it's Gandhi
what evuh

[dventimi]

Pamela,

If you're not willing to back up with a cogent argument whatever it is you meant when you wrote, "classic MORAL INVERSION", what was the point of writing it in the first place?

Regards,
Dave

[dventimi]

P.S. Pamela, you forgot to close your HTML italics tag, causing all subsequent posts to appear in italics. I closed it for you. You're welcome.

[dventimi]

P.P.S. Darn, the italics weren't visible in the preview, but they're still in the thread. Sorry, but I failed to remove them.

[moonrattled]

You are a loon. A total deranged motherfucking loon. I feel for your daughters...how EMBARRASSING to have a mother who thinks like Osama.

[moonrattled]

The proof of your loonacy. http://sadlyno.com/archives/003345.html

[Christian]

Sorry to double post, it should hav egone here.

How many synomyms can one summon to express the words "foul", "hateful", "psychotic", or "murderous". Do humanity a favor, Ms. Oshry, crawl under a rock until you find your humanity.Your blanket condemnation of innocents being slaughtered as 'just as guilty' as the murderous thugs of Hammas makes you indistinguishable from the enemy you despise. I hope that the Isrealis, that simply want to live their lives day to day, finally wake up and throw out the right wing thugs in their government. These 'hate pimps'(aka Neocons), endanger their lives more than any 'homicide bomber'. Ironically, These thugs need islamic militants to justify their existence or they might actually have to find real jobs. Both sides of the extremist coin need each other or they face extinction. The Netanyahoos and Sharons would find themselves having to make an honest living, if they didn't have the stick to put into the snake hole of muslim extremist idiots that are their counterparts. Until the people living in this region, be they muslim, jew, or christian, finally deal with these parasites and force them to get honest work, this kind of crap will never end. I hope that someday you realise that killing will never solve anything in this matter. It's been going on for 5k plus years. What makes you think a little more murder will solve the problem?

[SuperTroy]

How is it that people are so thick-headed? One of the most important weapons in the arsenal of terrorists is public relations. As long as people refuse to accept the reality of "civilian" casualities, the terrorists will always have the upper hand in the p-r battlefield.

And That my friends is the ultimate aim of 4GW groups, to level the power discrepancies between non-state actors and state run militaries via information networks.

Which is why Pammy with her "If by ignorance, complicity, neglect or helplessness the Lebanese wouldn't throw Hezbollah out and establish a strong government, then they must pay the price for the sins of Hizbollah." line of b-s thinking will ultimately do more damage to our efforts in the GWOT (or GSAVE or TWAT or whatever acronym you want to use this week) than a million Michael Moores hawking copies of the NYT on the Barbra Steisand radio network.

Because in Pam's world our choices are a.) roll over and die or b.) behave as monsters.

[SuperTroy]

Also, why does this:

If by ignorance, complicity, neglect or helplessness the Lebanese wouldn't throw Hezbollah out and establish a strong government, then they must pay the price for the sins of Hizbollah. And if people put up with dictatorships, theocracies, totalitarian regimes - as they did in Nazi Germany -- they deserve what Hezbollah deserves.

Sound like this?

You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen,

[snip]

The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

Taken from bin Laden's "Letter to America"

Way to be an apologist for al-qeada, Pam! Shall I inform the PJM COMINTERN or do you want to?

[SuperTroy]

Just cause I can't resist (Must be the bad Supergirl Photoshop), more rhetorical cover for Pammy can be found via Ward Churchill:

As to those in the World Trade Center . . .

Well, really. Let's get a grip here, shall we? True enough, they were civilians of a sort. But innocent? Gimme a break. They formed a technocratic corps at the very heart of America's global financial empire – the "mighty engine of profit" to which the military dimension of U.S. policy has always been enslaved – and they did so both willingly and knowingly. Recourse to "ignorance" – a derivative, after all, of the word "ignore" – counts as less than an excuse among this relatively well-educated elite. To the extent that any of them were unaware of the costs and consequences to others of what they were involved in – and in many cases excelling at – it was because of their absolute refusal to see. More likely, it was because they were too busy braying, incessantly and self-importantly, into their cell phones, arranging power lunches and stock transactions, each of which translated, conveniently out of sight, mind and smelling distance, into the starved and rotting flesh of infants.

Lest anyone get confused: Churchill is an ass. What does it say about our blog host when she's sounding like him though?