FALLACI!

         “I leave shreds of my soul on every experience.” - Oriana Fallaci

I went to see Oriana Fallaci this evening in what will most likely be her last speech. She is dying from cancer. No photos allowed. And while she could not have been more then 85 lbs, she railed away at Radical Islamofascim, the treasonous left and the impotent right as if she was taking on Goliath.

Oriana Fallaci - author of the powerful  Man and Letter to a Child Never Born has a fatwa calling for her death and  is being sued by the Muslim Union of Italy for her book The Force of Reason.  Consequently an Italian judge ordered her to stand trial in Bergamo on charges of "defaming Islam." From Prophet of Decline, WSJ hat tip: Susan D esq.

Oriana Fallaci faces jail. In her mid-70s, stricken with a cancer that, for the moment, permits only the consumption of liquids -one of the most renowned journalists of the modern era has been indicted by a judge in her native Italy under provisions of the Italian Penal Code which proscribe the "vilipendio," or "vilification," of "any religion admitted by the state."

In her case, the religion deemed vilified is Islam, and the vilification was perpetrated, apparently, in a book she wrote last year -- and which has sold many more than a million copies all over Europe -- called "The Force of Reason." Its astringent thesis is that the Old Continent is on the verge of becoming a dominion of Islam, and that the people of the West have surrendered themselves fecklessly to the "sons of Allah." So, in a nutshell, Oriana Fallaci faces up to two years' imprisonment for her beliefs -- which is one reason why she has chosen to stay put in New York. Let us give thanks for the First Amendment.

Ms. Fallaci speaks in a passionate growl: "Europe is no longer Europe, it is 'Eurabia,' a colony of Islam, where the Islamic invasion does not proceed only in a physical sense, but also in a mental and cultural sense. Servility to the invaders has poisoned democracy, with obvious consequences for the freedom of thought, and for the concept itself of liberty."

A Sermon for the West  Published: Friday, January 10, 2003

I Stand with Israel: I Stand with the JewsPublished: Monday, December 02, 2002

From the book, Immortality, author, Milan Kundera writes,

"...who is the pioneer of modern journalism? Not Hemingway who wrote of his experiences in the trenches, not Orwell who spent a year of his life with the Parisian poor, not Egon Erwin Kisch the expert on Prague prostitutes, but Oriana Fallaci who in the years 1969 to 1972 published a series of interviews with the most famous politicians of the time. Those interviews were more than mere conversations; they were duels. Before the powerful politicians realized that they were fighting under unequal conditions--for she was allowed to ask questions but they were not--they were already on the floor of the ring, KO'ed."

This evening David Horowitz [his introductory speech here] of the Center for the Study of Popular Culture and Editor in Chief of FrontPageMag  presented Fallaci with the Anne Taylor award (Anne Taylor was the first woman to go over Niagara Falls in a barrel - no joke). The speech will not be made public or published as Fallaci wants it for her last book she is currently writing. She said she "hopes her book helps her die a little less when I do die". And although she was supposed to receive this award at the Biltmore in February there was serious doubt she would make it..........The following remarks are from my fierce scribbling. In a word, Fallaci was wild. Smart determined, and intent on getting the message out there that we are underestimating the enemy. Playing nice guy, playing PC, killing all signs of religion (ie Christmas) will be the end of us.

"I do not believe the West will win."  Her fatalism is pure and unashamed.

The crowd to my surprise, was small. A peculiar mix of concerned,  scholarly,  erudite and  moneyed. Not what I would call a "sexy" crowd (as in passionate), but Fallaci had more sex appeal and passion than the whole of the city.
I was fortunate enough to sit with Richard Poe of FrontPageMag and his lovely wife, and to my left Susan, a quick witted down-to-earth lawyer (!) who writes sporadically for the NRO who was joined by her equally involved hub. Susan just sent me this excellent NRO piece on Fallaci, read it before continuing on.

And to add to my delight I had  the great fortune to spent some precious, delicious time with Phylis Chesler. I shall  interview her later this week on her new book, The Death of Feminism

Oriana Fallaci -  frail, tiny hit that podium running. She looked up at us and said "you are my comrade in arms. Our opponents are leftists. Conservative are too genteel. You are warriors and warriors can not get tired."

"The secret of happiness is freedom, the secret of freedom is courage". In describing despotism, Fallaci said the despot ignores the body and attacks the soul. Because it is the soul the despot wants to put in chains. The despot wants to put the soul in shackles. "You are free not to think. Think as I do".

The Truth Inspires Fear".

"Europe overflows with the witch hunts.... hits any one going against Islam. It overflows the with  New Inquisition. Trying to muzzle. Oh yes, like your Ward Churchills, your Noam Chomskys, your Louis Farrakhans and your Michael Moore's etc. TRAITORS! against which all antidotes seem to fail. Combined Neo nazi islamo fascism" [Atlas note: Fallaci spit these names out with such repulsion and utter contempt........riveting]

The Deaf remain the deaf, the blind remain the blind and both of them end up with ............brand of shame.

Islam has no sense of justice. The crime? The crime of opinion. A crime now disguised as re-education of Islam. Religious racism xenophobia.

Like love, hate belongs to  human nature. Should there be a penal code for the persecution for "hate"? Can we judge? Yes! It can be judged but only on a moral basis. For instance the moral basis of religion, the Christian religion, is based on love, not on a political basis or a criminal basis..........."It grants me the right to love who I want but also the right to hate who I want."

"It is my sacrosanct right! Those that hate me try to silence me with penal codes."

"And the West directs a hate towards itself. The West has lost its spirituality.It stands silent in the slander of Islam. "The censure of Europe".
"Civilizations die from suicide, not by murder," the historian Arnold Toynbee wrote.

On August 27, 2005, Fallaci had a private audience with Pope Benedict XVI at Castel Gandolfo with whom she found a kindred spirit and whom she believes understands the mortal threat faced by Christianity by the evil of Islamofascism. The Pope loves her work. "I feel less alone when I read the books of Ratzinger." I had asked Ms. Fallaci whether there was any contemporary leader she admired, and Pope Benedict XVI was evidently a man in whom she reposed some trust. "I am an atheist, and if an atheist and a pope think the same things, there must be something true. It's that simple! There must be some human truth here that is beyond religion." More here

Fallaci claims to be neither left nor right. She despises the left for the obvious reasons and holds the right in contempt for being weak. For not taking a hard stand and making the tough choices.

"Don't believe in a dialog with Islam. That's a naivete. It can only be a monologue. They do not believe in pluralism. There is no such thing as a "moderate Islam" and a Radical Islam. There is only one Islam."
I too believe this as much as it pains me to say it. I would like nothing better to believe that there is a side we can do business with, talk to. But that is self deluding.

Fallaci:"The real enemy is Islam and the most catastrophic threat is immigration not terror. It is immigration. And they do not integrate in Europe. Maybe in the USA but not in Europe. Those riots in France are a result of that very thing". The Chinese, Vietnamese etc immigrants are not rioting and tearing down the very fabric of society.

They [The Islamists] are very patient. And Clever.

This war needs boldness.

"WAKE UP WAKE UP. WE ARE AT WAR. WAR HAS BEEN DECLARED ON THE WEST AND WE MUST FIGHT. One or the other must perish."

and so she has spoken. And while it was painfully clear she was preaching to the converted, it was also painful that the choir was so small.

Comments

[arabs are cuter]

man, that was breath-taking.

what a beautiful, beautiful mind. cancer may slowly be eating away at her frame, but oriana isn't short one milliliter of the pure, unadulterated life juice that has made her who she is. namely, bile.

reading this piece i admit i was inspired to the point of tearful self-flagellation as the undeniable truths rolled in one after another like waves battering my soul's too-kind surface:

the real enemy is islam.
do not believe in dialog.
the leftists are evil.
noam chomsky is a neo-nazi islamofascist.
i have the right to hate who i want.
one or the other must perish.
the west will not win.
the truth inspires fear.

the effect was like a crushing hit parade of all my favorite xenophobic hits from the middle 20th century, like "the real enemy are the jews" and "jews are evil". by the end i imagined how everyone in the tiny audience must have been singing along as fallaci cursed and spit blood onto a framed picture of kofi annan and slammed the sharp end of a nobel peace prize into the nearest stagehand's chest, positioning her self under the boy's gushing wound while the erudite, moneyed public chanted "chug! chug! chug! chug!"

the thought of it all was really too beautiful for words. so i went outside and built a bonfire, staring at it as i devoured half a fifth of jack and meditating on whose bodies should compose the successive layers of the giant enemy leftist barbeque i would have in her honor, this christmas.

[lance]

I have always asked the question,"Can I trust you to let me live in peace". But I have also advised, Don'task questions to wich you already know the answers. She's right, discourse is futile. Just act.
Lance

[John Sobieski]

I love her bluntness. It's so refreshing after listening to all these wishy washy ill informed politicians.

[Chris Vaughan]

WOW!! Very powerful words. I have been saying nearly the same thing for years now. Since I was in High School in the early eighties about what has been going on in the middle east. What a shame her health has deteriorated so. Here is a true example of someone worthy of the Nobel Prize. Her last comment posted .... "We are at war" has never been more truer than now. The obviouse observations of censorship and the stealthy way Islam is creeping into western society by slowly worming its way into the main stream of political correctness and subversion of governments is dead on mark. I applaud her and all she said. I can only hope and pray that more people wake up to the truth of reality before we all have to bow to Mecca.

[comandante agi t. prop]

I may not necessarily agree with her, but I do admire and share her sense of fatalism. It sounds like you had an amazing night.

[Poitiers-Lepanto]

Thank you for posting this thread about Oriana.
Im having a difficult day but I have to forget the health problems and pay homage to Pamela and to oriana.
The West will not win ? Maybe in a first phase we will suffer a lot. But we will regroup.
It will be a long, mythical battle. The Light will win.

[Athos]

And while it was painfully clear she was preaching to the converted, it was also painful that the choir was so small.

It may seem small - but the choir is singing, and we are fighting, and ultimately, we will prevail.

Thanks for providing this message - doing so has increased the size of the choir.

[Deepdiver]

I really envy you Pamela.

Read Fallaci's last two books in Italian and was quite swept away.

I don't agree with her entirely - she's a bit too pessimistic and I think we might just be able to pull the chestnuts out of the fire. But by God, she was the first to stand up and be counted.

I agree with Poiters-Lepanto, the light WILL win. That is why we fight.

Thanks for telling us about it.

[the quitter]

there are some powerful words there. like agi, i don't agree with all of her conclusions, but her observations are great. like this one:

"Don't believe in a dialog with Islam. That's a naivete. It can only be a monologue. They do not believe in pluralism. There is no such thing as a "moderate Islam" and a Radical Islam. There is only one Islam."

it's true. it's also true if you take out the word "islam" and insert "christianity", especially in this country.

these popular forms of superstition will be the death of the planet, we won't have to wait for the earth to warm.

[A Scandinavian]

Due to anti-Semitism, anti-Americanism and the shameful appeasement policy of Europe and the Left our civilization will surely suffer (actually we've already seen the future in the jihad against Israel, in 9/11, in Bali, Madrid, Amsterdam, London and -- naturellement -- in France). Eventually Europe is already doomed. But so is the so-called Muslim world. Because Islam of today is a totalitarian death cult with suicide as its major virtue. There's nothing good, positive or vital in this creed. Just backwardness, oppression and destruction. No one wants to make business with a psychotic society for ever. Neither the Chinese or the Indian mind is compatible with Islam. And the US will survive. But I'm afraid that at least Western Europe will transform first to a Gaza-like hellhole and then -- like rest of the Arab world -- to an atomic dessert.

Please, cry for us "dissidents" and "infidels" in Europe. But don't forget that there's a huge rift between the political elite / the media and the people over here. The EU of today needs "America", "imperialism" and the "Jew" as an addict needs dope. Without this weird -- but familiar -- narrative people would wake up and reject this utopian and multicultural "project" tomorrow. And they would certainly ask themselves why the heck millions of Muslims are invading their cities (without any gratitude whatsoever).

However, it's late in the evening and I fear the worst...

[nikko]

Hang in there, Scandinavian. Your tough younger brother is still alive and well (and ready to kick ass)

[Jill]

Thank you so much for this post. Oriana is one of my heroines. I only wish I lived in NYC so I could have seen and heard her myself.

[Thomas Carney]

Europe, after the so-called "Enlightenment," started on a slow, inexorable downward trend. Europe has slowly but surely disavowed its spiritual roots, namely, holding Christianity and its values to be SOMETHING TO FIGHT FOR!!!!

Most of Europe's culture is now existing merely in museums, and the same thing is happening here when it comes to spiritual values.

Europe and the United States were founded on Judaeo-Christian values.... as long as these values are being eroded, then ISLAM can and will triumph over Western society.

The fact that Oriana is being prosecuted in Italy (of all places!!) for 'vilifying' Islam.... is simply incomprehensible.

Oriana's point on there being NO DIFFERENCE between radical Islam and moderate Islam is right on the head. Our gutless wonders for polilticians have yet to understand this.

[seeteeare]

Pammy,

Here is the entire article. I know you will want to post it right up there front page:

Costly Withdrawal Is the Price To Be Paid for a Foolish War
By Martin van Creveld
November 25, 2005

The number of American casualties in Iraq is now well more than 2,000, and there is no end in sight. Some two-thirds of Americans, according to the polls, believe the war to have been a mistake. And congressional elections are just around the corner.

What had to come, has come. The question is no longer if American forces will be withdrawn, but how soon — and at what cost. In this respect, as in so many others, the obvious parallel to Iraq is Vietnam.

Confronted by a demoralized army on the battlefield and by growing opposition at home, in 1969 the Nixon administration started withdrawing most of its troops in order to facilitate what it called the "Vietnamization" of the country. The rest of America's forces were pulled out after Secretary of State Henry Kissinger negotiated a "peace settlement" with Hanoi. As the troops withdrew, they left most of their equipment to the Army of the Republic of South Vietnam — which just two years later, after the fall of Saigon, lost all of it to the communists.

Clearly this is not a pleasant model to follow, but no other alternative appears in sight.

Whereas North Vietnam at least had a government with which it was possible to arrange a cease-fire, in Iraq the opponent consists of shadowy groups of terrorists with no central organization or command authority. And whereas in the early 1970s equipment was still relatively plentiful, today's armed forces are the products of a technology-driven revolution in military affairs. Whether that revolution has contributed to anything besides America's national debt is open to debate. What is beyond question, though, is that the new weapons are so few and so expensive that even the world's largest and richest power can afford only to field a relative handful of them.

Therefore, simply abandoning equipment or handing it over to the Iraqis, as was done in Vietnam, is simply not an option. And even if it were, the new Iraqi army is by all accounts much weaker, less skilled, less cohesive and less loyal to its government than even the South Vietnamese army was. For all intents and purposes, Washington might just as well hand over its weapons directly to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

Clearly, then, the thing to do is to forget about face-saving and conduct a classic withdrawal.

Handing over their bases or demolishing them if necessary, American forces will have to fall back on Baghdad. From Baghdad they will have to make their way to the southern port city of Basra, and from there back to Kuwait, where the whole misguided adventure began. When Prime Minister Ehud Barak pulled Israel out of Lebanon in 2000, the military was able to carry out the operation in a single night without incurring any casualties. That, however, is not how things will happen in Iraq.

Not only are American forces perhaps 30 times larger, but so is the country they have to traverse. A withdrawal probably will require several months and incur a sizable number of casualties. As the pullout proceeds, Iraq almost certainly will sink into an all-out civil war from which it will take the country a long time to emerge — if, indeed, it can do so at all. All this is inevitable and will take place whether George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and Condoleezza Rice like it or not.

Having been thoroughly devastated by two wars with the United States and a decade of economic sanctions, decades will pass before Iraq can endanger its neighbors again. Yet a complete American withdrawal is not an option; the region, with its vast oil reserves, is simply too important for that. A continued military presence, made up of air, sea and a moderate number of ground forces, will be needed.

First and foremost, such a presence will be needed to counter Iran, which for two decades now has seen the United States as "the Great Satan." Tehran is certain to emerge as the biggest winner from the war — a winner that in the not too distant future is likely to add nuclear warheads to the missiles it already has. In the past, Tehran has often threatened the Gulf States. Now that Iraq is gone, it is hard to see how anybody except the United States can keep the Gulf States, and their oil, out of the mullahs' clutches.

A continued American military presence will be needed also, because a divided, chaotic, government-less Iraq is very likely to become a hornets' nest. From it, a hundred mini-Zarqawis will spread all over the Middle East, conducting acts of sabotage and seeking to overthrow governments in Allah's name.

The Gulf States apart, the most vulnerable country is Jordan, as evidenced by the recent attacks in Amman. However, Turkey, Egypt and, to a lesser extent, Israel are also likely to feel the impact. Some of these countries, Jordan in particular, are going to require American assistance.

Maintaining an American security presence in the region, not to mention withdrawing forces from Iraq, will involve many complicated problems, military as well as political. Such an endeavor, one would hope, will be handled by a team different from — and more competent than — the one presently in charge of the White House and Pentagon.

For misleading the American people, and launching the most foolish war since Emperor Augustus in 9 B.C sent his legions into Germany and lost them, Bush deserves to be impeached and, once he has been removed from office, put on trial along with the rest of the president's men. If convicted, they'll have plenty of time to mull over their sins.

Martin van Creveld, a professor of military history at the Hebrew University, is author of "Transformation of War" (Free Press, 1991). He is the only non-American author on the U.S. Army's required reading list for officers.

[Merovign]

1) Ms. Fallaci is an amazing person. Note that she is "hiding" in the "oppressive" US to avoid prosecution for saying the wrong words.

2) It's nice to se seeteeare is still unable to address the topic. Hey, maybe you should start a blog instead of telling Pamela what to do with hers!

3) "the quitter": Do you really think we're at great risk of mass terror attacks by Presbyterians or Episcopalians? Or is it just easier to be the "hero" against Christians who bear the insults you throw than it is against the Islamic Fundamentalists who are an actual, physical threat? How brave of you.

[In Vino Veritas]

The crowd to my surprise, was small.

Such unalduterated hate does not have an audience; it has ideological backers, nothing more.

[Pamela aka"Atlas"]

yes, mmmm, such love

[Thomas Carney]

In Vino Veritas: Hate?? More like fact!!!

It is not hate that we have for Muslims or Islam. It is the intentional deceit that's been going on for CENTURIES and the West, if it doesn't wake up, will find the slow, sure, and almost inexplicable expansion of Sharia on the Western world.

You don't believe me?? Hang on to your butt.

[arabs are cuter]

shorter Pamela:

Hitler existed. Ergo, the Islamofascists are out to get us.

Convincing. I'm not sure I see where the New York Times and the war on Christmas fit into it, though.

[arabs are cuter]

It is not hate that we have for Muslims or Islam.

"i have the right to hate who i want." -oriana fallaci's beautiful mind

[JohnAnnArbor]

Fun anecdote about Oriana:
She spoke to the commander of the second moon landing before the mission and made a bet with the astronaut. To win, Pete Conrad said these words as he stepped onto the moon:
"Whoopie! Man, that may have been a small one for Neil, but that's a long one for me."

[the quitter]

merv,

i think the world is at risk of attack by any number of religious fundamentalist groups. some of them christian, some islamic, and some from smaller cults. fundamentalism is the fundamental problem here. people caught up in group-think who are willing to kill to "protect" their particular viewpoint or satisfy their god are the problem. if you think that describes only one religious or idealogical group then your eyes are closed to history and current events.

yours,

t. quitter

[JohnAnnArbor]

Hey, "arabs are cuter", does she have freedom of speech? Or not? And should she? Simple question.

[the quitter]

PS i just followed a link here and probably won't be back to see further comments so have a nice day people.

[JohnAnnArbor]

hey quitter,

Name a large scale religious NON-Islamic terror incident in the last twenty years, one that MANY people, a significant fraction, of the same religion, publicly and vocally supported.

Islamic terror has a large, unrepentant cheering section. Note their lack of concern when Theo van Gogh was killed (to pick one example).

[the quitter]

ok, one more before i go. i just read "arabs are cuter's" comments.

well done.

[the quitter]

surprise, still here. ok i'm leaving now but john, here's one:

the "shock and awe" bombing of iraq.

another: sadaam's.. oops bush's rape rooms.

you guys certainly are hostile to any sort of debate .. even when i, upfront made some positive comments.

creepy.

[comandante agi t. prop]

"arabs are cuter"...you can hate the hate but don't hate the hater, that's just unfair. And at least Pamela didn't throw in some pics of Saddam, Arafat and exploding Frenchmen in this post.

Shock and Awe is a definitive act of terrorism which was supported by a majority of Christians. And yes, it was religiously motivated since Bush said God told him to invade Iraq, or maybe it was really Satan...

[Lois]

Pamela,

You know my admiration for the unique gift that is Fallaci...

Thank you for this post. I will save it when I need a reminder of what a woman of such deep, strong convictions, who is so right, can accomplish even at what is, tragically, the end of her life. We owe her so much. Her clarity of vision and passion are both courageous and inspiring. As a Jew, I can only look on in awe at her love and support while the rest of Eurabia threatens. Thank G-d she is here, in NY.

It must have been breathtaking to be a part of such a group.

[Merovign]

Quitter:

What you did wasn't debate. It was jump in, toss a few flames, and then cry when someone throws back.

Standard troll behavior.

If you wanted a debate, perhaps you would have done something other than try to insert your own paranoia about Christians into every thread you visit.

Maybe you might actually comment on the topic in question instead of trying to change the subject. If you disagree, you could say why you disagree. Maybe try to provide some information.

But you didn't do that. Did you?

[In Vino Veritas]

Should Fallaci be allowed to speak. What a red herring. Of course. As Pamela has pointed out though, no one wants to hear the filth she spews. In the market of ideas, hers are not worthy of mention; one may as well pay attention to a kook at Grand Central or the Black Israelites preaching in front of Macy's.

[Thomas Carney]

In Vino: Go have some good vino and stay off the MD 20/20 and the Ripple. It's clouding your mind.

Oriana is not spewing filth... show me how.

She's decrying the Left's constant blame game.

Here's the blame game... go blame

Christianity (especially Catholicism),
Jews,
white men,
America,
conservatives,
and straights for all the world's ills. If you have anything different than this, it MUST be defended against all criticism and must be supported at all costs.

If it's non-white, non-Christian it must be good, in the Left's view. Hey, there's Islam, it's great!!! It's non-white, non-Christian, non-American... it's SUPPORTABLE!!!!

[Stephen]

I wonder what the Islamo-Nazi appeasing Bush bashers would have said of Churchill, when he spoke of the "drilled, docile, Hun" armies and expressed open hatred of Hitler. Probably they'd have called him a racist, hater, and pointed to British imperialism as morally equivalent to or worse than Hitler's invasion of Poland. Fallaci witnessed 9-11 up close. She saw the Muslim crowds in the Middle East cheering. She is warning us of the consequences of appeasement. Her pessimism may be correct, as witness some of the comments on this thread.

[arabs are cuter]

at least Pamela didn't throw in some pics of Saddam, Arafat and exploding Frenchmen in this post.

it's true, spamela showed such xenophobic restraint when she posted this.

lord knows she probably wanted to throw in some hitler or something like that but no, she--oh wait, no, she, did link to hitler. mah b.

you have to love somebody who, when backed into a rhetorical corner, assaulted for her righteous belief in ethnic hatred and the elimination of an entire religion, links to hitler.

that is not a sign of weakness, it is a sign of strength. just like plastering dozens of images of burning buildings on your website. "we will never forget." almost seems like pamela's scared she might indeed forget if she doesn't see that exploding building montage every day. and sure, the perpetrators of those acts of terrorism would like that imagery to be spread, so it can haunt us, again and again.

but pamela doesn't care. she's got her own agenda: to convince us that all human beings (except her particular brand of xenophobe) are basically nothing but hitlers in training. they'd all commit genocide, if they only had the chance. that is why we need to nuke every other continent, beginning with asia. so we don't commit "cultural suicide." right, pam?

the only problem i see with this is that, unless our favorite jewish american princess is extremely well-funded, i don't see who the hell she thinks is going to pay for all this ethnic cleansing of muslims. it's not cheap--ask rummy.

maybe pamela could start having 21st-century-hitlers bake sales after every ashcroft or fallaci-type speaking engagement. i know hardly anyone shows up to hear such bile but it would only take a few neocon AIPAC types with deep pockets to help out the cause. pamela could bake little muffins with little hitler faces on them, and sell them for a few million each. that should be able to buy her some warheads.

and come on, every xenophobe chick needs warheads if she wants to be taken seriously with her "NUKE IRAN! WTF! STFU!" posts. pamela is crying out for more funding, so she can turn her empty, disgusting threats into mushroom clouds and rivers of blood.

do it for the children!

[arabs are cuter]

I wonder what the Islamo-Nazi appeasing Bush bashers would have said of Churchill

If I run into any of my colleagues, I'll ask them, ok Stephen?

I think most of them think Churchill was an overblown gasbag and shrewd master of realpolitik but I'll get back to you with a confirmation after our next Islamo Nazi Bush Bash Barbecue.

We're gonna be havin ribs.

(What? No pork allowed? Well fuck the Koran. We're Islamo Nazis, thank the blond-haired blue-eyed Lord, not real Muslims.)

[Asher - Dreams Into Lightning]

Pamela, thanks for posting this.

[susan]

Creepy is reading the quitter's righteous ignorance supporting an inevitable downfall. It is almost as if the quitter wishes to submit as punishment for a lifetime of self-serving, self-indulgent nothingness. It is as if the quitter is nobody worth dying for, so why bother with defending that nasty clump of cells. Seeteeare is ujust an underling to the nothingness.

[Ben]

Arabs are cuter-
There is no need to provide any belabored *proof*, real or sarcastic, that *Islamofascists are out to get us*.

After all, the islamofascists tell us this themselves. You don't need to *prove* what someone quite openly claims.

Given all the islamofascist rhetoric we hear, and destruction we see, can you prove they are NOT out to get us?

If you are muslim, here's a place you could start: maybe you could suggest that the terrorist leaders, if they really are twisting and perverting the religion of peace, be tried for the crime of apostasy- you know, like that Egyptian who suggested that maybe the Q'uran could be interpreted to support the equality of women? In places like Egypt and Iran, its punishable by Death- in Malaysia, merely imprisonment.

If Osama et. al. really is perverting Islam, he's an apostate. If, on the other hand, he is merely advocating the aggressive advancement of his religion, well within the acceptable bounds of Islam, then no Muslim would raise the apostasy issue.

You know the end point here, don't you? Let's not speak of it. It's not nice to say such things.

[Ben]

Arabs are cuter-
There is no need to provide any belabored *proof*, real or sarcastic, that *Islamofascists are out to get us*.

After all, the islamofascists tell us this themselves. You don't need to *prove* what someone quite openly claims.

Given all the islamofascist rhetoric we hear, and destruction we see, can you prove they are NOT out to get us?

If you are muslim, here's a place you could start: maybe you could suggest that the terrorist leaders, if they really are twisting and perverting the religion of peace, be tried for the crime of apostasy- you know, like that Egyptian who suggested that maybe the Q'uran could be interpreted to support the equality of women? In places like Egypt and Iran, its punishable by Death- in Malaysia, merely imprisonment.

If Osama et. al. really is perverting Islam, he's an apostate. If, on the other hand, he is merely advocating the aggressive advancement of his religion, well within the acceptable bounds of Islam, then no Muslim would raise the apostasy issue.

You know the end point here, don't you? Let's not speak of it. It's not nice to say such things.

[Bostonian]

JohnAnnArbor never got an answer to this:

"Name a large scale religious NON-Islamic terror incident in the last twenty years, one that MANY people, a significant fraction, of the same religion, publicly and vocally supported."

I might add these:

Name a NON-Islamic religion that divides the world into two "houses": a house of peace (the believers) and a house of war.

Name a NON-Islamic religion whose adherants riot when they hear of desecration of their holy text.

Name a NON-Islamic religion whose "defamers" have to hide or have round-the-clock police protection.

[In Vino Veritas]

Here's the deal, let's see if the mouth breathers can follow:

Muslims: innocent
Muslims terrorists: guilty

That a Jewish person would punish the whole for the sins of the few is unconscionable. Judaism is built on the concept of social justice. You ought be ashamed of yourself.

[susan]

I'm not Jewish but does 'social justice' mean Jewish people must Submit or Die?

Just wondering since this is the requirement of a good anti-semite 'social justice' advocators like KKK leader David Dukes or fascist ranter like George Galloway. Ever hear Galloway speak? He really has this barking moonbat way of complelling the audience to Heil Hilter.

Where do all the Christer's fit into the 'social justice' of Submit or Die?

Funny, there were only 'a few' white supremists who joined the KKK but for some reason anyone born white, Christian Male is somehow a member of the neo-nazi tribe. Some Christians are Christains but some Christians are Progressive Left wolves wearing the good shepard clothing. Funny the neo-nazis like David Dukes abhor the Jews as much as the Islamists. Extreme right meets the Extreme Left. David Dukes meet George Galloway. Same ideology under a different name neither of which have any shame at all for their evil hatred.

[Bostonian]

Let me see if I can make this simple for Vino:

People who have committed no crimes=good
People who have committed crimes=bad

Murderous ideology=bad
Murderous ideology held by large percentage of people on earth=very, very worrying

[Das]

What good does it do to go around screaming "there is no moderate Islam?" Give me a break. Of course there is. Or should we go ahead and kill all Germans right now to make sure Nazism doesn't rear its head again? Feel better? Just because I don't want to kill every walking Muslim doesn't make me a weak right-winger. Jeesh. Oriana has gone over to the jihad side, somewhat, by caving into the image THEY have perpetuated: that all Muslims are seething with blood-lust and cravings for world domination. So do we just go ahead an nuke Iraq? Saudi Arabia?

I despise the treasonist left as much as Oriana but just because the right is trying to come up with a human response to crazed terror - does not mean the right has surrendered just yet; at worst the right is in a muddle but it is a human muddle; we are supposed to love our enemies, after all. Yes blanket hatred for an enemy solves all kinds of problems.

[Bostonian]

Das:

It is the murderous ideology that I hate, not the people who believe it and who have done nothing.

If there is a moderate version of this ideology, where are its followers and why are they so very very quiet?

[Das]

Bostonian,
They're a block away from my south Seattle house right now hundreds of them, using a middle school in Seattle called Aki Kurose, celebrating something - Rhamadan maybe? I don't know - doing what they have every right to do - worship in peace. I wish I knew how to make them become firebrand activists and loud denouncers of jihadi murderers but I don't know how to do that. But insofar as they are worshiping in peace and devotion and minding their own business are they not our allies?

[Bostonian]

Das,

No, they're not allies, but that doesn't make them enemies, either.

They're either neutral or undeclared. I do not know which side they're on: the side of secularism or the side that says Allah is the source of all law.

Is Osama bin Laden an apostate? If nobody among 700 million Muslims worldwide can say that publicly, doesn't that give you a clue about this religion and its mainstream? If a Muslim criticizes his religion and has to go into hiding as result of it, doesn't that speak volumes about what the mainstream is?

Christianity underwent a Reformation, and as a result, the world is a nicer place than it was for non-Christians. Is a Reformation not possible with Islam?

[Das]

Bostonian,

"Christianity underwent a Reformation"

Keep in mind that the Reformation was a 200 year long bloobath that spilled over to a newly discovered continent (thank God - Hello Boston -Seattle, here); It is fine and right for you to hold up an acid test (OBL apostate?) for world-wide Islam; the upheaval that we are going through is probably part of the answer.

As far as the US goes, as long as Muslims put themselves forward in the public weal as citizens rather than Muslims then I don't see that we have a problem. At the same time like you, I am aware that a virulent strain of Islam is creating havoc on world scale.

So what's the next step then? Like you I would like to see local Muslim populations stand up and declare against jihadism. But again, I do not know how to make them do that. Do you? What next, loyalty oaths?

[Bostonian]

Das,
Where did I say the Reformation was fun for anyone? It was a religious war, and wars are awful.

As for loyalty oaths, I am struck by how every time I point out that radical Islam is a problem, people assume I have ideas about crazy "solutions" like that and worse. Is it not possible to simply notice a problem?

Anyway, the "next step" is currently underway in Iraq, where millions of Muslims are deciding whether they are permitted to create their own constitution and laws. Now that they don't have a dictator as the source of all law, they are choosing how to interpret Islam.

The radicals have been *desperate* to prevent a representative government from forming in Iraq. If you came across Zarqawi's intercepted letter of last spring, that should be clear.

The radicals condemn the very act of voting. Every time the people of Iraq vote, they reject radical Islam, and they put themselves on our side.